[ENDWALKER SPOILER!] On Zenos

[Nabby]

Personally in complete disagreement with the seemingly majority in this thread. Zenos isn't supposed to be an "in-lore" likeable character. He's not the WoL's friend, or really similar in many ways at all. But to ZENOS, the WoL is the ONLY person in the universe that he can relate to.

His presence in the end is wholly appropriate: despite how ridiculous it may seem to a normal person with many interests and reasons to live and find happiness, Zenos's one reason to live was to find and fight the strongest opponent he could find. And he did so with a ludicrous and frankly impressive drive. His one dimensional personality and drive made him the perfect foil not to the WoL, but to despair itself. Because he simply doesn't give a shit about anything but getting what he wants - there's no distractions or tragedies that can put him down.

And in the end, he gets what he wants, as villains sometimes do. (See Ilberd and the reclamation of Ala Mhigo) I see some people lamenting the fact that they could not deny Zenos his duel, but honestly I can't see a single reason the WoL would do that other than purely out of spite for Zenos, and spite is not a character trait the WoL has ever shown, whether you agree with that trait or not. It would be completely out of character for the WoL to not defeat Zenos when he finally becomes the biggest threat to peace and stability. The fact that you're giving him what he wants is irrelevant - the WoL does not live and fight to spite villains, they live and fight to make the world a better place.

This is why Zenos's revelation prompted by Alisae is so important. Because it prompts him to actually think about *why* we would fight him. He tried angering us, he tried hurting our friends, and he tried destroying the world, and none of it worked because the WoL isn't a character that can be taunted and driven into an irrational rage by their enemy. In the end, Zenos's solution was simply to become the one and only final loose end to wrap up our story.

I do think the ending works better when you're a player who does see their time in Eorzea as an adventure - one in which the pleasure of adventuring and challenging yourself is it's own reward, and I'd say this is actually the vast majority of players. But it does still work for those who see their adventure as simply the path to peace so they can go back to fishing or whatever without the world ending.

I feel like a lot of people simply don't care for Zenos as a character and are using that opinion to criticise his involvement in the ending, rather than criticising the quality of the writing itself. Personally, I thought Zenos was a complete disappointment in SB and didn't earn his place as a villain on the WoL's level at all, especially because of how he finished himself off. But in EW, even if in the end he didn't end up doing a whole lot plot-wise due to being manipulated by Fandaniel, his arc did come to a satisfying end.

[Bright-Flower]

He was definitely better used in 6.0 than 4.0 IMO. But still never found him very engaging as a character, or credible as an actual threat. A tiger kept on a leash by the writers rather than allowed to be a dangerous wild card whose actions have consequences, with the one exception being murdering his father.

I think rather than questioning why we can't not fight him at the end, it's weirder that we don't fight him on the moon post Zodiark. Why let him go? Why not TRY to stop him even if he manages to teleport away? Fandaniel screwed him over but he's still a dangerous psychopath, why NOT TRY to stop him there and then? He says he'll get no satisfaction fighting you then and there but that gives the WOL no less reason to try and stop them.

[Vayanne]

I found Zenos annoying at first, but so I did Emet in his clown phase and Fandaniel (who never quite got out of his clown phase). He provides some variety, since, unlike the villains we usually face, he's not a walking drama bag. Not that I don't like complex villains with tragic motivation, but there's something pleasing watching Fandaniel go all theatrical while Zenos just sits there bored out of his mind and only wants one simple thing.

The end was a bit disappointing, as I was hoping to see more of a confrontation between Meteion the dark empath and our "friend" the dark psychopath. She causes suffering and destruction because she feels too much, while he causes suffering and destruction because he feels too little. I imagined her going "Hopelessness! Despair!" while Zenos just gives her a terrifyingly unfeeling stare "Yeah, but when am I getting my fight?" I didn't like that we left him there. If Endwalker's message is that there is always hope, why shouldn't there be hope for Zenos? I hope he isn't dead and gets to use his power for good, or at least that we get to meet a shard of him that wasn't turned into a monster by the one true evil - bad parenting. Such a waste. Such power befits a hero (I guess I had a Praetorium run too many). If given the option, my character would have offered him a deal: "Do good deeds the whole week, and we get to fight "to the death" every Monday!".

[Maxilor]

Zenos doesn't care about the End of the World.

He only wanted one thing:

1 v 1. WoL Only. No Scions. Final Destination.

[Lunafreya]

I DONT WANT ZENOS TO COME BACK. Zenos should absolutely not come back. His pathetic thing if we can even call it a character arc is over. In all honesty the guy should have stayed dead in Stormblood because in Shadowbringers he did nothing but stay on his throne, kill his father Varis, and eventually met Fandaniel to reenact the Final Days. Everything in Endwalker has been Fandaniel's idea and plan. Zenos did nothing but watch lazily on his throne in the Tower of Babil doing absolutely nothing but think of the battle with him and WoL. Zenos does not even have a character arc/motivation. He is actually the worst character in this very game and certainly one of the worst villains Final Fantasy has ever had. Can you tell me anything memorable he has done in Endwalker? He did nothing actually. Our WoL and his body got swapped and still we emerged victorious and also shoulder tackled him to the ground and even smacked his voidsent avatar. You know what Zenos did? Nothing! Anima was a pathetic plot point... should have saved it for a trial with REAL mechanics and FFX music at that. What a letdown. Zenos did nothing but say hahaha give me all your rage. He did not even have the guts to show how monstrous he was by hurting the Scions. And then guess what? He pisses off until the end of the story where he uses the Scions in hopes of getting to you and after a long and tired battle with the Endsinger AKA the actual main threat... we are treated to a battle with Zenos which in my opinion happened because they had no idea for Zenos's character arc so they had to put it somewhere where it makes sense.

While the ending is hype because Zenos is dead and we got to punch his face out, I'm still not happy with the way Zenos came back. I think it was dumb and unearned even if we can make a argument that he is the perfect ally at the end of days against the Harbinger of despair since he has nothing but.... however, the only memorable thing Zenos has done in the last few years is insult the Endsinger by telling you "how is it still alive"

I dont know why so many people enjoy Zenos... I genuinely do not but please do not bring him back. His pathetic excuse of an arc is over and we won and he died at the edge of the universe and his body probably burnt/dissolved. DO NOT BRING HIM BACK. He is pathetic and did nothing of note the whole story. Do not make him a Scion and redeem him. Make way for more exciting adventures please.

TLDR: USELESS VILLAIN and should ABSOLUTELY NOT COME BACK.

[Elysidelphi]

I DONT WANT ZENOS TO COME BACK. Zenos should absolutely not come back. His pathetic thing if we can even call it a character arc is over. In all honesty the guy should have stayed dead in Stormblood because in Shadowbringers he did nothing but stay on his throne, kill his father Varis, and eventually met Fandaniel to reenact the Final Days. Everything in Endwalker has been Fandaniel's idea and plan. Zenos did nothing but watch lazily on his throne in the Tower of Babil doing absolutely nothing but think of the battle with him and WoL. Zenos does not even have a character arc/motivation. He is actually the worst character in this very game and certainly one of the worst villains Final Fantasy has ever had. Can you tell me anything memorable he has done in Endwalker? He did nothing actually. Our WoL and his body got swapped and still we emerged victorious and also shoulder tackled him to the ground and even smacked his voidsent avatar. You know what Zenos did? Nothing! Anima was a pathetic plot point... should have saved it for a trial with REAL mechanics and FFX music at that. What a letdown. Zenos did nothing but say hahaha give me all your rage. He did not even have the guts to show how monstrous he was by hurting the Scions. And then guess what? He pisses off until the end of the story where he uses the Scions in hopes of getting to you and after a long and tired battle with the Endsinger AKA the actual main threat... we are treated to a battle with Zenos which in my opinion happened because they had no idea for Zenos's character arc so they had to put it somewhere where it makes sense.

While the ending is hype because Zenos is dead and we got to punch his face out, I'm still not happy with the way Zenos came back. I think it was dumb and unearned even if we can make a argument that he is the perfect ally at the end of days against the Harbinger of despair since he has nothing but.... however, the only memorable thing Zenos has done in the last few years is insult the Endsinger by telling you "how is it still alive"

I dont know why so many people enjoy Zenos... I genuinely do not but please do not bring him back. His pathetic excuse of an arc is over and we won and he died at the edge of the universe and his body probably burnt/dissolved. DO NOT BRING HIM BACK. He is pathetic and did nothing of note the whole story. Do not make him a Scion and redeem him. Make way for more exciting adventures please.

TLDR: USELESS VILLAIN and should ABSOLUTELY NOT COME BACK.

There is something called "flat character arc". It's a thing. It serves some purposes. Maybe read up on that.

[Elysidelphi]

I found Zenos annoying at first, but so I did Emet in his clown phase and Fandaniel (who never quite got out of his clown phase). He provides some variety, since, unlike the villains we usually face, he's not a walking drama bag. Not that I don't like complex villains with tragic motivation, but there's something pleasing watching Fandaniel go all theatrical while Zenos just sits there bored out of his mind and only wants one simple thing.

The end was a bit disappointing, as I was hoping to see more of a confrontation between Meteion the dark empath and our "friend" the dark psychopath. She causes suffering and destruction because she feels too much, while he causes suffering and destruction because he feels too little. I imagined her going "Hopelessness! Despair!" while Zenos just gives her a terrifyingly unfeeling stare "Yeah, but when am I getting my fight?" I didn't like that we left him there. If Endwalker's message is that there is always hope, why shouldn't there be hope for Zenos? I hope he isn't dead and gets to use his power for good, or at least that we get to meet a shard of him that wasn't turned into a monster by the one true evil - bad parenting. Such a waste. Such power befits a hero (I guess I had a Praetorium run too many). If given the option, my character would have offered him a deal: "Do good deeds the whole week, and we get to fight "to the death" every Monday!".

Thank you for those words! I agree wholeheartedly with them and both myself and my WoL would think/react the same way.

But I do think he will be back. There are many unanswered questions about him, many loose ends. Also many hints and clues related to him. There is no way the writers will ignore/forget all of them, there are simply far too many to just be ignored. They were done on purpose, I think. I think Zenos is a character with subtlety, with a long-term story, that will develop slowly, while we are being fed clues and hints in regards to him.

PS: If you like Zenos and you like theorycrafting, we have a Discord server dedicated to theories/ideas about Zenos. Helps with keeping the hope alive during this long night!

[Ryaz]

I just wish we were able to give Zenos a stronger denial in the end than "Think of me what you will". My skin crawls at the thought of my WoL being compared to him and "only seeking the thrill of battle" when everything else falls away. I have reasons to to fight, to protect my friends. Not because I'm some Goku expy who's just looking for stronger opponents for the thrill of it.

I know it's supposed to be some meta shit, but just still ridiculous and immersion breaking for me.

[Bright-Flower]

I just wish we were able to give Zenos a stronger denial in the end than "Think of me what you will". My skin crawls at the thought of my WoL being compared to him and "only seeking the thrill of battle" when everything else falls away. I have reasons to to fight, to protect my friends. Not because I'm some Goku expy who's just looking for stronger opponents for the thrill of it.

I know it's supposed to be some meta shit, but just still ridiculous and immersion breaking for me.

Ultimately, I think the mirror comparison falls flat.

He and the WOL share one thing in common, at most, with the love of pushing ones self and seeking out danger/thrills.

For Zenos that's all he is, the only thing that defines him as a person.

For the WOL, it's just one trait among many. My personal interpretation at the ending is that it's the WOL's desire to see their friends again and go back that calls the remote back to them via dynamus, where as Zenos is left alone with nothing else to live for. The just share that one thing in common but because that one thing is all Zenos is he overestimates their actual bond.

[Lunafreya]

There is something called "flat character arc". It's a thing. It serves some purposes. Maybe read up on that.

Even Exdeath is more interesting and that's not exactly a compliment.