(Spoilers) Why are dungeons so under-tuned when...

[Shuuli]

I think this is not entirely true. I ran the last dungeon a couple of times now and I can tell you that there are groups who still wipe on it. This is why I started playing as a healer. I might not be the best heal, but at least I don't die and can ress back people if needed on bosses.

In addition to that, many healers at max level don't know how doom works in different scenarios (e.g: when its just heal to max remove or when its esuna remove). I can tell this based on running Delubrum on a daily basis for relic.

Some people will find some content harder than others, I think SE's goal is to make things doable by everyone when it comes to MSQ.

That being said, I agree that trials as MSQ with a full new team can wipe a lot. But I saw people not accepting help in MSQ trials cause they wanted to figure out the mechanics. Which is all nice and cool if it was on extreme, but not when 7 other people are just trying to finish the freaking story... please make a party finder if you wanna do a blind learning party for a normal trial...

[ssunny2008]

Yoshi's team has ridden their current design paradigm to the #1 spot in the MMO world so it seems they know something you don't.

This means nothing. There are a bunch of reasons why FF14 has a large playerbase and none of them is that the game does a better job than other especially gameplay-wise.

- One of them is the playstation-advantage. Comparable trinity-games like SWTOR and WoW can´t be played on console, which is a big thing in today´s gaming-industry. Accessibility is a huge sales factor.

- Another one is the localization. Of course it´s somehow popular in the West, but FF14´s largest playerbase is pretty much Japan-exclusive, or overall in the asian-region. And of course, Playstation is pretty much exclusive in Japan too. Meanwhile more West-orientated MMORPG´s are more popular in the West. But overall the playerbase, which wants to play MMORPG´s is much larger than the one in the West. Japan and Korea are MMORPG heavens so far.

- They cater the masses, not gamers, which is a serious issue of this game, but the most here seem to be happy with nothing but some bling-bling. Gameplay-wise this game is becoming easier and easier to the point that it just sucks. And that´s something the most mighty casuals don´t care about. They just want to press 1 button to go trough the whole game, because they just don´t care about gaming. As long as they can chill in Limsa with some glam or are able to unsync-farm pretty much everything with low efford, they´re happy paypigs. SE just needs to implement some cool animations for that 1 button and they gonna be rich af.

- COVID did a lot to gaming. A lot of ppl had nothing to do in their lockdown, so they started playing videogames. Not only FF14 has become a bunch of new players.

- Some braindead ppl followed a streamer... Like wtf?! I´ll never get why so many ppl are so easy to manipulate by some guys or half-naked girls playing games and/or talking bs in the internet. So far, it doesn´t say that the game is good or attracted millions of players by itself. Those monkeys just followed a guy "blablabla" in front of a webcam.


FF14 might be that one MMO with the largest number of active players, but it doesn´t have the largest total player number. Gameplay-wise it´s even on the bottom compared to all other MMORPG`s out there. SHB and Endwalker did a lot to make this game super braindead. While Blizzard will learn from their mistakes, other games like New World are going to improved and with Lost Ark around the next corner, the playerbase will drop again, for sure.

(Just my personal opinion, but if we would compare the number of active GAMERS in FF14 to other MMO´s, FF14 would lose hard. I would never count ppl who run through games like this like it´s a singleplayer-game, or others who just want to feel happy to show others their new glam or because someone gifted them with a new little pet.)

[kejakalope]

This means nothing. There are a bunch of reasons why FF14 has a large playerbase and none of them is that the game does a better job than other especially gameplay-wise.

That's weird, since it's one of the major elements repeatedly cited by all the WoW gameplay-centric raider folks who come over, how much they love the gameplay.

- They cater the masses, not gamers, which is a serious issue of this game, but the most here seem to be happy with nothing but some bling-bling. Gameplay-wise this game is becoming easier and easier to the point that it just sucks.

If you think the last seven MSQ trials we've gotten are easier than the ones in ARR, HW, SB (original Shinryu notwithstanding)... I dunno what to tell you. Four of them have hard chokepoints that regularly wipe bad pugs to this very day.

(Just my personal opinion, but if we would compare the number of active GAMERS in FF14 to other MMO´s, FF14 would lose hard. I would never count ppl who run through games like this like it´s a singleplayer-game, or others who just want to feel happy to show others their new glam or because someone gifted them with a new little pet.)

No one cares about one-true-way "GAMER" rhetoric.

[Shurrikhan]

That's weird, since it's one of the major elements repeatedly cited by all the WoW gameplay-centric raider folks who come over, how much they love the gameplay.

In what sense? If in the sense of rotational flow, that doesn't apply to the majority of those I know outside of the likes of SAM, BLM, and older versions of MNK. If in the sense of DDR mechanics, response has been mixed from most Heroic+ raiders I've convinced to join me in XIV. If in the sense of what results from server (un)responsiveness or (un)reliability, that's been a hard no.

Stats are one thing -- and notably missing, especially given that you claim an absolute -- but what do you even intend "gameplay" to mean here.

My experience is merely anecdotal, as most is, and my sample size only 70 or guildmates/FC-mates over the years, but it contradicts your findings enough that I have to wonder how you define the term.

[ssunny2008]

That's weird, since it's one of the major elements repeatedly cited by all the WoW gameplay-centric raider folks who come over, how much they love the gameplay.

I´ve friends in some other MMORPG´s, even WoW. They´ve tried this game in it´s free trial and none of them got warm with it. "Too slow, not engaging etc."
I highly doubt that even half of the guys you claim are here for the gameplay. It´s just one of the last trinity MMORPG´s with great graphics. The other half will notice soon, that the gameplay is highly repetitive and homogenized. Imo "it´s just something new" and still not a proof, that FF14 does a better job than others. It doesn´t.

If you think the last seven MSQ trials we've gotten are easier than the ones in ARR, HW, SB (original Shinryu notwithstanding)... I dunno what to tell you. Four of them have hard chokepoints that regularly wipe bad pugs to this very day.

What hard chokepoints?

Why should bad players actually be able to finish content? Does it make sense?

Just yesterday i dropped in the level 89 primal via mentorroulette as tank. Both tanks left before. I asked them to start and the guys "Nono, we miss a tank." I´ve been like "I can solotank this and it´s better to practice than afking around."
I started the fight and those guys died to pretty much everything again and again until we finally wiped in phase 2. Then i started to explain the fight. We started again, things worked way better than before, meanwhile a 2nd tank joined, who had no clue too. We wiped again around 50% in the 2nd phase. The other tank left immediately. So i started a 3rd pull and have written down everything in chat as fast as i could like "In, out, spread after, etc..." And hurray, we finished the fight.

So far 1 guy has carried 6 other ppl even without a 2nd tank through multiple double-stack tankbusters. The fights aren´t hard, they´re easy af. The most ppl are just not able to check the mechanics properly. Either because they run blind through the game or are just not smart enough. And while the game doesn´t force anything from the players, of course the most suck and stuck on their easy button and echo in any possible content. I can just repeat it, this game has become a mess gameplay-wise.

And i still see poeple wiping or dieing at any MSQ trial even with overtuned stats thx to a broken downsync. Lately my gf stucked in Titan or Ifrit? normal for half an hour. And she is definately not a bad player, but there isn´t much carry-potential if you´re not a healer or tank. New fights are definately easier thx to all the stats and tools we´ve, combined with everything telegraphed and mostly just "move to A, move to B, stack , spread" stuff.

No one cares about one-true-way "GAMER" rhetoric.

Oh a lot of poeple do care since gaming has become a mess thx to all the willing paypigs and their low efford trash behind animations.

[DinahDemiurge]

If you think the story trials are hard you should probably not use level skips and go back through 4 man dungeons to gradually learn re-used enemy mechanics.

[Jirah]

Yoshi's team has ridden their current design paradigm to the #1 spot in the MMO world so it seems they know something you don't.

Good for them but, this means absolutely nothing

Pokémon, makes the most money out of any video game IP in the world would you call them quality products worthy of such blind faith such as yours?

Popularity doesn’t mean anything if anything it hinders quality as they have less of a excuse to try

[lisaa]

Not everyone is a hardcore gamer who feels everything is easy ^^. I think everyone should be able to go through the story content no matter their ability because the story is really wonderful. For people who want more challenging content there is always harder modes like savage and ultimate

[Adeacia]

Increasing the difficulty won't get you more skilled players. It will instead get you less players, from people who quit because it's too hard. This is not a good thing for the long term health of an mmo.

Also, the people I've played with in any Endwalker content, all seem to say the difficulty did go up.

[ssunny2008]

Not everyone is a hardcore gamer who feels everything is easy ^^. I think everyone should be able to go through the story content no matter their ability because the story is really wonderful. For people who want more challenging content there is always harder modes like savage and ultimate

Savage isn´t much more than EX content which a harder DPS check and instawipes just because 1 out of 8 players failed to play his mechanic. It´s not harder or mechanically attractive... just a test of your own patience with ppl who needs a bit longer to move to ABCD. Ultimate means the same, just with longer fights and more stuff to remember.

Increasing the difficulty won't get you more skilled players. It will instead get you less players, from people who quit because it's too hard. This is not a good thing for the long term health of an mmo.

Increasing the difficulty from level to level, fight to fight brings a learning curve into the game as much as class-quests should carry that you learn the needed stuff for your class obviously. SE fails miserably with it... They introduced "normal / easy / super easy" buttons, dumb´d classes down and copy & paste any fights. Tanks have become super broken and are able to solo-carry pretty much everything without a DPS check, meanwhile healers are not really needed unless ppl needs to be rezzed.
This is a serious issue! With real gameplay and a decent learning curve, players would grow without much efford and would be able to perform way better.

Also, the people I've played with in any Endwalker content, all seem to say the difficulty did go up.

This is a thing just because Shadowbringers was even more laughable with all dumbdowns and bulletsponging fights without any depth. Endwalker just added new telegraphs and mixed up some classes. Next to that, it might be a scaling issue since they changed it. And older Raidcontent feels like bullet-sponging now, meanwhile dungeons got even easier pass.