We Need that Feeling back of "CoP"(first release)

[Zaaku]

You realize there's a medium solution, right? A solution within the already existing system of the game that can be utilized to satisfy both camps?

It's called adjustable difficulty settings. Single Player games use this all the time to appease wide groups of players and add replay value to the story sections of the game.

Yeah no.

You can never truly scale that kind of difficulty correctly without some number being more advantageous then others. The moment people figure out you can zerg down the fight with 4 people while bineg easier then 8 you suddenly have half parties floating through content instead of facing up to the challenge. Jesus christ people it is an MMO. It is designed to be played with the OTHER PLAYERS! Having a objective which is actually difficult is FUN. You can't just stop there though. If you make 8 players fight and strain at a point of contention in the storyline then have some slap nickel breeze through the fight because he did it solo you take away from the satisfaction and triumph of those who did it the right way.

And yes there is a right and wrong way. Banding together with a group of friends or allies to take on a serious challenge and only through teamwork could you finally topple the boss is a good.

Saying, 'fug it I only got 20 minutes to play." walking out there alone and lolwinning and making the story and fight itself unmemorable and easy is doing it WRONG.


I'm sorry but if you cannot put in the time or the effort then why are you playing an MMO? The entire basis of the genre is basically TIME SINK. They are designed to make you play over months and years. The leveling process and content and built, from the ground up, to extended game play so you can keep paying them. Anyone who walks into an MMO and expects things to be easy and solo friendly because they are time poor is just plain daffy.

[Keyln]

Which is an odd thing to say since FFXI was a major long running success that was one of the most popular MMO (Behind the Titan of course) for years. Even now the current player base of that game, the one you claim we cannot emulate, has what? 20 times over the current population of FFXIV?

Most popular MMO (behind WoW)? Hardly. While FFXI has done very well over the years, it's never broken 500,000, much less 1 million. And copying what's bad about FFXI is a sure way of not succeeding.

Now of course FFXIV is still in a working beta but a good portion of why they lost so many potential kickstarter subscribers from FFXI was that they tried going in a different direction with the Fatigue System and Leves. Look what that got us. So no, being more like FFXI is not a bad thing and in all honesty. With how many MMO's crash and burn or shrivel up within months now the safest thing they could ever do would be to embrace what made their fans happy before while still adding new story and game mechanics. The original theme of 'the world is hard, but through team work you can overcome' doesn't have to disappear just because some people had a rough time during a 1-time play through quest line.

Yeah, some of the early stuff in XIV didn't work too well. But that doesn't mean that SE needs to take ideas from XI, especially if they're bad ideas.

I'd rather see XIV stand on its own feet, using unique game ideas that work, rather than relying on XI game mechanics, especially the worst parts of XI.

P.S. Nice out of context quote of me there.

[Hyrist]

Seriously wtf.

I played FFXI casually and managed to get through sea with a casual static. I really don't understand these generalizations you are making and wondering if you just made some up(specially the bit about about noobs in sea)

You did not need certain class combinations to get through CoP. Well, I guess you did, you'd need a healer, tank, buffer, and rest dps. A standard pt.....Really what was difficult about the mission line? It sounds like the difficulty came from peoples inability to make friends and that's not a issue with the game.

That last point is the worst type of generalization, I don't really want to touch it.

What you managed to personally accomplish is irrelevant. The numbers SE published progressively at every Census did not lie. CoP Was abhorrently difficult to the vast majority of the base. You don't adjust the difficulty of something twice before ultimately lifting the level cap on it when the content was capable of being completed 'casually'.

I ran several statics to get people across and I heard so many copies of the 'tried and true' methods that would fail miserably over and over again and dishearten so many players. I put my personal progression in the game on hold for years so I could get people through the bottlenecks in that crushed so many. (I was even featured on a FFXIs web-comic attributing to my penchant for Promy statics - the first of a few media appearances.) I knew the exceptions, I knew the stragities, I got some of the oddest job combinations through it. But never did I insult the content by calling it easy not when I personally saw how it frustrated so many people (and have had friends who quit over it).

As far as the "Noobs in MY Sea." You obviously have not followed forums much. I could likely go fishing for the exact conversation if I cared enough to do so. Elitism in FFXI was and still is standard fare. I don't need to prove that.

The point is you're defending the mechanics that enabled that sort of mentality, regardless of whether or not you're being truthful in claiming yourself an exception to the rule.

As far as my last 'generalization'. I could be very specific, but I've already done my finger pointing to the GMs and the STG.

[Hyrist]

Zakku, you don't even merit a full quote as your bias has been obvious for months.

But I will re-state what I have said directly to you many times. What your complaint about MMO's not forcing players to play with each other to get through storyline content amounts to is "OMG SE PLEASE MAKE PLAYERS PLAY WITH ME! I CAN"T GET THEM TO PLAY WITH ME!!! MAKE THEM DO IT!" And that's the sum of your complaint and its validity.

If you can't get players to play with you in optional content, that's your fault. You sit here and insult the casual playerbase by calling making content accessible to a wider audiance 'hand holding' when in truth, it is you who want your hand held in Square Enix forcing (often negative) interaction upon players who are more than content to play an MMO just to take part in an evolving gaming world with consistent lore, a great story, continual content updates and the option to make friends on their own terms.

But again, this point is moot. Yoshi has already told us his approach on this matter. "Main Storyline" quests will be single-player capable. Grand Company quests are supposed to be designed for party content. It's a good compromise, though I still beleive that creating a difficulty meter in order to allow players to progress at their own pacing (A note to Zakku, you're full of it when you state they can't balance difficulties on fights. They did it easily with Leves, they can do it for instanced fights as well. Heck, there's already two versions of Primals guess what - you fight the weaker version for the story, and the harder version for the loot. The system already exists!)

This would allow them to lift the 1 player participation cap on single player, for those who which a challenge for a party in their story content. (Hopefully with some added loot as incentive for those to do so.) As well as making a scaling difficulty for group content (reserving the best loot for the hardest difficulties.) This way people can have a challenge at their own pace.

[Zaaku]

Most popular MMO (behind WoW)? Hardly. While FFXI has done very well over the years, it's never broken 500,000, much less 1 million.





P.S. Nice out of context quote of me there.

Yeah, but you're wrong ^ ^



Have you ever considered that the reason why FFXI did so well was all those "bad parts" you keep referring too?

[Ravencross]

If CoP didn't have the level restrictions in place when it first was released, I don't think you'd see many of the great opinions of it that you do now. A big part of CoP that people look back on fondly was how difficult it was, and having enforced level caps for the different battles is part of that. It prevented people from simply out-leveling the content, and then going back and soloing it, which would have trivialized it in a big way and, I would bet, result in a less favorable overall impression from those who praise it now.

As resistant as people are to something being difficult or challenging, you will almost always see them appreciate that content all the more when they've succeeded at completing it. Because it wasn't handed to them, or won without any great effort.

The problem is what you stated - it was difficult to find people in XI to help with things many times. They were in their own little cliques or linkshells, helping only those people. To put it bluntly, many people in XI had shitty attitudes in that regard. They would accept help from people all day long to achieve their own goals, but never had the time to help others - including those who'd helped them, because there was no longer anything in it for them. That happened to me a number of times; I'd help people out only to have them blow me off later when I asked for help from them. That's a "people" thing, not a game thing.

Now some will say "well that's because of the way SE designed the game. It forced people to be that way" - going with the ever-popular "blame the game/devs" cop-out instead of putting the blame where it belongs, on the players. Thing is, that's a crock, and I can illustrate it, using CoP.

First it was "the fights are too difficult to do and you lose xp". Then SE made certain parts of CoP easier, taking away that excuse.
So, then the excuse became "well, it's SE's fault for making it too difficult to get level 30 gear for the capped fights, so it's not really feasible to go back and help" - Then SE implemented level sync which also sync'd down whatever gear you're using.

So, then it became, "well, it's SE's fault for making the fights require groups". I got this excuse a number of times.

Then SE removed the level caps, but some people still wanted to do the fights "at level" instead of going the easy route, and would ask for help. So then the excuse became "you don't need a group. Just level up more and you can solo it".

And so on.

As one excuse was taken away, those people found another to take its place. The bottom line is, all those excuses were BS. It was all about them not wanting to take the time to help anyone else because many people in XI were self-centered and concerned only about themself. They didn't want to help anyone else, unless there was a reward in it for them.

Unfortunately, the only way SE (or any dev) could get people to help others out would be by basically bribing them to with rewards for doing so. As I've said before, many people don't care about anything but the reward. If there's not a pay-off they find worthwhile, they aren't interested.

I took several breaks from XI in my time playing it over 7+ years. Every single time was due to getting sick of the greed and self-centeredness of many of its players. It was never the game itself that put me off.

Sadly, I can already see signs of that happening in XIV as well.

^ This. 100%, absolutely.

In fact, I ended up quitting FFXI altogether - after playing since Dec. 2003 with very infrequent breaks - due to the absolute shadow of itself that the game had become. That being said, it was purely in the hands of the players who became repulsively "gimme, gimme, gimme... fuck everyone else", although SE is due blame as well for moving the difficulty level to the polar opposite of the spectrum with Abyssea and inviting more of said people to get while the getting was good.

I ran my own social LS, my own endgame LSs, mainly because I got sick of dealing with the corruption and rule-bending a lot of the "elite" LS's were invariably subject to. We were capable of basically the same things anyway, with a lot less politics and a lot more fun and cooperation. And a lot less botting / cheating / etc. (but I digress - that's a whole different issue altogether...)

I can't tell you how many times I ran Promyvions for countless members over the years, before and after the changes. How many people either I or my LS mates helped with Sea access. We'd even helped people who weren't LS members, because.. well.. wasn't that part of SE's vision in creating this MMO? Community? Failing that concept, yeah... I always understood when people said "FFXI is too hard" way back when, because it was always followed up with, "I couldn't get help with anything and I didn't know what to do for missions/quests."

I'm enjoying FFXIV as it is, sure there's room for change and development and progress. I miss FFXI and feel nostalgic for it every now and then, but it will never again be what it was and I prefer it to remain in those countless fond memories I have of my time there and all the friends I made.

While I'd love the "CoP feeling" back, I don't want "CoP Pt. II" inserted in this game either.

[Zaaku]

Oh Hyrist you card~

I actually had a good laugh at that. You couldn't be more off track.

I am avadily against watering down the games content to appease the solo-minded player and those who cannot put in the effort to join or start their own party to do a challenging piece of content. Not only because it takes away from the accomplishment for the players who did it the real way. Not to mention the feeling of satisfaction that produces a warm fuzzy feeling even years and years later. I am strongly opposed because it also robs potentially good and useful players of the experience of their own triumph over adversity would would otherwise solo it and deprive the community of another possible PT member. Be honest now. If one could breeze through CoP unrestricted, unlevel capped, and solo would you think it would be as favorably remembered? Hell no, because victories not earned in blood are soon forgotten.

Also, the leves are a travesty. They are a means of solo and early level EXP and nothing more. No one looks back and thinks, WOW THAT WIGHT STUFF WAS JUST LEGENDARY! WOULD DO AGAIN 10/10!

Unless you mean you like the ability to switch the game to Easy Mode at the flick of a switch to goose through content then put it back to normal when the hard parts are over. In which case HELL NO. That is a horrible idea and not in line with the spirit of Final Fantasy. None of the titles before ever put emphasis on a single character saving the world. Or a lone hero taking on the dangers of Chaos and disorder by their lonesome. They sure as hell didn't make them easy either.

I'm sorry you got burned out on Promies. Heavy is the head that were the Crown of LS Promy leader but you cannot let that distort your outlook. Challenging content that pits you and your LS mates against near impossible odds are fun. Because when you beat them you also get to share a victory which will last years with some of your closest friends. Content that can be wanked through by people who don't want to work at it are hallow. Not even worth doing except to see some cutscenes and lewt. You cannot have both. I personally would rather lose some people who cannot cut it and have a thoroughly hearty and robust experience then be left with a listless boring solo fest that no one shares stories about because they did it by themselves.

P.S. - Tell Fred to update LVL UP already!

[Preypacer]

Most popular MMO (behind WoW)? Hardly. While FFXI has done very well over the years, it's never broken 500,000, much less 1 million. And copying what's bad about FFXI is a sure way of not succeeding.

FFXI was the #4 most popular pay-to-play MMORPG for quite a while. There is absolutely nothing wrong with 500,000 players. It was quite profitable for SE.

People need to get over this idea that "you need a million or more players to be successful" that WoW has brought about. 500,000 active players, especially for as long as it maintained that size population - around 7 years into its service - is a hell of a good run. It was one of the few MMOs to be able to boast those kinds of numbers that late into its time online, especially one with the pacing and curve that XI had throughout those years.

Look up other pay-to-play MMOs that launched around the same time as XI did (in Japan, not the US) that maintained ~500,000 players as long as it did. The list will not be long. Many MMOs to launch well after XI dropped well below 500,000 within their first few months of service, nevermind years. This is despite several of them following the "guaranteed success" WoW-template of being casual friendly, easy leveling, etc.

To regard XI for its first 7-8 years in service as anything less than successful is just plain wrong.

[Hyrist]

Zakku, according to your own graph, it peaked at 550k, then dropped to 500k where it 'plateaued' at around 500k. She wasn't far off and you're making a petty point.

I did consiter the time sinks as part of the reasons they did so well. It had nothing really however to do with difficulty. It is also the primary reason why it did not do better.

Some of the reasons why it did as well as it did:

1. It was the FIRST Final Fantasy MMO: That comes default with a certain fringe of gamers.

2. They progressively added content to keep players interested. Sky, Dynamis, Sea/Limbus (for the whole 24.48% of the playerbase that could 4 years after the content was releaced.) , Assaults (including Salvage) Campaign, and finally Abyssea all were out there for players. A lot of these had very unnecessary time skins in them for how rapidly they came out with content, which encouraged the WORST in players (Shall we talk about the Salvage Dupe issue again? How about the Bots at Ground Kings?) But yes, the continual flow of content they could do repeatedly for long term goals was utimately a health to the game - one the player base hated deeply.

3. Continual story additions. (Which is funny. CoP was considered way too hard. ToAU was 'too easy' until Alexander, but they still complained that they couldn't rush content because of the "Wait til next JP midnight." issues. WotG was acclaimed as some of the best cinematography in the game, but people complained at the slow content release. Goes to show people are never happy with this.)

4. Most importantly: People. Regardless of whether you were casual or hardcore, if you made friends in MMOs, they usually stick with you. (Which reminds me that I should check in on Saskiot.) Point, these were friends you did not make out of necessity, these were friends you made because you agreed with them, enjoyed playing with them.

Funny that you talk all about hand-holding and how you never play with other people in this game. But I've got a LS and friends in this game I play with just the same, regardless of the difficulty being high or low. All it means is that I can accomplish more on my own now than what I could before, which means of the stuff I do need a group for - I can be ready for it as opposed to being under-leveled and under-geared.

[Hyrist]

Unless you mean you like the ability to switch the game to Easy Mode at the flick of a switch to goose through content then put it back to normal when the hard parts are over. In which case HELL NO. That is a horrible idea and not in line with the spirit of Final Fantasy. None of the titles before ever put emphasis on a single character saving the world. Or a lone hero taking on the dangers of Chaos and disorder by their lonesome. They sure as hell didn't make them easy either.

Except in every single remake there were at least 2 difficulty settings. And you're looking at just Final Fantasy. What about the CURRENT successful titles. Final fantasy's old pedigrees aren't working here anymore.

I'm sorry you got burned out on Promies. Heavy is the head that were the Crown of LS Promy leader but you cannot let that distort your outlook. Challenging content that pits you and your LS mates against near impossible odds are fun.

(Sidenote, Prommies were a huge pain, probably the worst bottleneck of the whole bunch, but Airship fight and Mr Zergrush Samurai were no slouches either.)

Difficult, memorable fights are fine, as far as optional content. Garuda, Ifrit, Mog King they're great. I enjoy the fact that these legends are challenging. (And hopefully more so after they re-balance Black Mages, seriously needs to be done.)

But you don't dangle a STORY over people's heads on content difficult enough to encourage elitist BS like Class Stacking. Storyline content should never be under that umbrella.

Should the fights be fun? Heck yes. Should they be hellishly difficult? NO. Save that for the grind where it really matters.

And also, yes, I do Leves beyond just solo leveling. When I'm not in the mood for crafting or competing over pop NMs I go and do them for Company Seals or some easy gil. I personally find them fun, and it's nice to have that option. Are they riveting and exciting? No. But it beats running around Tu'lia at night fighting Gilsellers for Bat claims.

I'm not saying no content should be difficult. I'm saying storyline content should not be abhorrently so. Give them a reson to do it hard, and a reason to go back to it.

The absolute perfect example of this? Divine Might. That was a fun and hard fight in its hayday that you did not have to do, but people still did. It was memorable, an accomplishment to do, and in no way a barrier to the story-line.

I hold Divine Might well above any of the CoP fights, which were, as described, 2hr spam fights in many, many occasions.


Also, as I recall, I didn't need 13 other real life people to kill Kefka. And I remember Prishe a heck of a lot more than some the people I did CoP missions with (aside from the specific people who helped me in my campaign to get people past CoP). You can do the whole "not alone" thing with one player.

And think of how much content went unplayed in that game. Bahamut alone was a great fight, but such a disappointment that so few could experience taking on the Wyrmking. And it was a great story to boot, hidden behind such hurtles. That sort of thing is a problem.

But no, we don't need that feeling of CoP. We need that feeling of Divine Might back.