We Need that Feeling back of "CoP"(first release)

[Preypacer]

Irony? There are servers full with players who have played since launch, now? About 10,000-20,000 people who have been paying since January now.

But there's a difference between cumbersome (XI) and broken (XIV circa 2010).

Please don't start back-pedaling and splitting hairs now to try and make your argument "seem right".

You made a flat, absolute statement. You stated, unequivicolly, that FFXI kept many of its players due to brand loyalty. Are there that many original players still in XI now? No. But that's also irrelevant to the point.

The point is, there still are many of them playing now, and there were many more who stuck around at least 7+ years into the game's life cycle. That still supports my statement that people are not going to stick with a game for years if they do not enjoy it enough to do so, regardless of what IP it is. Brand loyalty has very little to do with it.

You made no distinction between a "broken game" or a "cumbersome game" in your previous post, which are subjective views anyway; there are people who'd argue XI was absolutely broken, while XIV just needed some tweaking and more content to be a near perfect game for them. Opinions are all over the place and you can't build an objective argument on a sea of subjective views. Regardless, you made an absolute, unqualified statement that "brand loyalty" is what kept many of those people around.

I merely pointed out the objective fact that people will not stick with a game they don't enjoy for years regardless of its IP or brand. This proves out with SWG, TOR, XIV, Matrix Online, and so on.

Now, if you're going to start back-pedaling so you can retro-actively work new criteria into your argument, then there's really no point in discussing it further with you. I have no interest in debating with a moving goal-post.

You missed my point entirely. I never said "no one enjoyed XI."

I never said you did. I made a statement in support of my argument against your claim that brand loyalty had something to do with keeping ~500k players around for at least 7+ years. That statement was part of the previous bit you quoted separately. So, you were basically addressing it individually and not in its intended context.

Here's the simplest way I can say it: Saying "XI reportedly had 500,000 subscribers therefore XIV should copy X" is flawed logic.

Why? Races were copied from XI to XIV. It worked. The new Auction-House like system from XI is being worked into XI, that's working. Several of the same gameplay mechanics that existed in XI are present in XIV. Those are working.

It seems to me that a MMO that managed to keep ~500,000 players (your "issues" with and nitpicks against the number notwithstanding) at least 7 years into its service was doing things very right overall, while a MMO whose servers were a ghost-town only months after its launch was doing things very wrong. So, it seems to me that it's perfectly valid logic to believe that specific implementations or systems that worked in XI would be at least a better solution than what was implemented in XIV. Because well, the one with those features was successful. The one with different implementations of those features wasn't.

Also consider this, FFXI maintained a healthy player-base, that 500k number you hate so much, right on through CoP.

The problem is that your entire argument relies on this premise you're trying to push that "FFXI wasn't really as successful as people seem to think it is". Perhaps if you chose something more solid and less dubious to base your arguments on...

That has nothing to do with the number everyone focuses on. Yeah, the census broke things down into all sorts of percentages. But they all still were percentages of the initial number of 500,000.

So, you're speaking for everyone now? I happen to recall many discussions taking place on various forums, on a lot of the different categories from year to year. So I don't know who this "everyone" you claim to speak for consists of.

Yes, they were all numbers based on the 500,000 number because that's the overall number of players the game maintained from year to year for several years.

That you personally don't think that's an accurate number is irrelevant. You're arguing from incredulity. Because you can't personally believe something is true doesn't mean it's not. If you want to prove it's not an accurate number, then you need to actually provide proof, not your personal opinions and misgivings.

The initial number was meant to be promotional. A talking point each year.

And? So what? It can't be promotional and still be representative of the state of the game, becuase you personally don't like the 500,000 number they posted for several years?

Hardly. They were paid subscriptions and therefore counted in the census.

This is regarding the bots. Excuse me, but I said a good deal more regarding bots than you are representing here. If you're going to respond to my point, please respond to my entire point and don't cherry-pick one part and then respond to it out of context. That's an incredibly and blatantly dishonest way to discuss/debate.

But again, you're missing my point. I'm not trying to say XI didn't have players who enjoyed the game. Just that the "500,000" isn't entirely accurate. It includes trials, unsustained users and RMT accounts and legit players with multiple accounts. A reported 500,000 doesn't automatically mean "500,000 unique players."

And just like the bots argument (which you omitted in your response), all other MMOs have trials, unsustained accounts, RMT accounts and legit players with multiple accounts. Like I said before, if you're going to bring those aspects into your argument, then you need to bring the same aspects into play for all other MMOs you're comparing it to.

FFXI was not the only MMO with trial accounts, unsustained users, multiple accounts and RMT/bot accounts figured into its numbers. Regardless, FFXI maintained ~500,000 accounts for about 7 years into its service, while other, supposedly "more casual and mainstream friendly" MMOs around it dropped down to ~200k within their first year.

Now in case you don't realize it, I'm granting you your point about bots/trials and such figuring into the 500k total. I'm simply stating that on balance, it doesn't really matter. All other MMOs have bots, RMT, trials and such as well. Regardless, FFXI's population almost 7 years into its service was double that of many others only 1 year into theirs. You can't dismiss that just because it doesn't suit your narrative.

I know you don't want to admit it, but no matter how you spin or dismiss it, FFXI has been a very successful MMO.

But these broad stroke statements need to stop. Especially when they're incredibly misconstrued.

You should listen to yourself more often.

[Matsume]

All i'm going to say at this point is that Yoshi P has mentioned servers having up to 4,000 players on at once during JP (?) prime time, which leads me to assume there are about 10,000 highly active accounts per server for a total of roughly 100,000 highly active accounts spread throughout all the servers. That's close to a million bucks a month in player subscriptions. Do you think it costs SE more than $10,000,000 a year to maintain the staff and servers necessary to run FFXI? I would be surprised. It is likely this game is already profitable...

I would like to know where Sephrick got his numbers of 10-20,000 subs since january...

[Sephrick]

I'm sorry, but that's not what I said. I said brand loyalty needs to considered. And that I'm curious how many stuck it out because of that. Let me quite myself for you:

Peaking as the eighth most subscribers at that time certainly isn't anything to scoff at. But I'm curious, and I know we'll never know, how many of those 500,000 stuck it out because the game was called Final Fantasy.

How is that an "unequivocal statement of fact" when I said "I know we'll never know"?

Did you even read anything I wrote? Or are you just exercising a form of verbal diarrhea?

As for the rest of you post, it's all basically non sequitur. I'm certain you didn't even really read anything I wrote, because your arguing against points I never made. Or you're blindly ignoring other things.

So I'll respond to where you actually talk about what I'm talking about and point out how yet again you didn't even read my posts.

And just like the bots argument (which you omitted in your response), all other MMOs have trials, unsustained accounts, RMT accounts and legit players with multiple accounts. Like I said before, if you're going to bring those aspects into your argument, then you need to bring the same aspects into play for all other MMOs you're comparing it to.

FFXI was not the only MMO with trial accounts, unsustained users, multiple accounts and RMT/bot accounts figured into its numbers. Regardless, FFXI maintained ~500,000 accounts for about 7 years into its service, while other, supposedly "more casual and mainstream friendly" MMOs around it dropped down to ~200k within their first year.

Now in case you don't realize it, I'm granting you your point about bots/trials and such figuring into the 500k total. I'm simply stating that on balance, it doesn't really matter. All other MMOs have bots, RMT, trials and such as well. Regardless, FFXI's population almost 7 years into its service was double that of many others only 1 year into theirs. You can't dismiss that just because it doesn't suit your narrative.

I know you don't want to admit it, but no matter how you spin or dismiss it, FFXI has been a very successful MMO.

Do I need to quote myself again? I guess I do.

tl;dr: There's no doubt XI was a financial success. There's also no doubt that those sustained subscribers found something wonderful in their own experience. However, to use numbers produced by a company to promote their product to try and justify a very specific aspect of a service that has been running for 10 years now is flawed. Some people enjoyed level caps, some dealt with it in the promise of something else they might enjoy.

And all of that is irrelevant to XIV as the developers need to let the game stand on its own legs without making it "like XI" or "not like "XI." They now better than anyone what worked and what didn't.

There, from my first post, in plain bolded text. I say XI was a success.

So tell me again what I did a didn't say.

My entire point is that using that 500,000 to support a very specific aspect of XI is a fallacy. Whether or not that number was 500,000 players or 500,000 accounts was just a side point. But I took the time to bold the above quote in my first post to point out that despite that, I wasn't trying to discredit XI's success. Only to point out some factors that play into that number.

I could come on here and say "In XI pick axes and hatchets and fishing rods broke and that game had 500,000 subscriptions for six years so that should happen in XIV."

You see? It's the same argument people have been making for level capped content and HNM claim wars and a litany of other things they specifically enjoyed. And it's not wrong for them to have enjoyed it, but it is wrong to assume that several hundred thousand people played a game for years because of that one specific thing.

I know people who hated Sky, but they stuck with the LS and did it because they loved Dynamis. There were plenty of cases of people doing things in XI that they didn't care for because that was the basic structure of the game: help under the assumption you will be helped.

That's all I'm saying. Yes, XI was a success. But SE can't reproduce what people liked about it. Because several hundred thousand people all liked certain things and loathed others. By the time they'd get through with doing that they'll have to have made an HD version of XI -- which some people would probably still complain that it doesn't "look" like XI because the graphics are too good and it doesn't have that old school feel.

[TheVedis]

All i'm going to say at this point is that Yoshi P has mentioned servers having up to 4,000 players on at once during JP (?) prime time, which leads me to assume there are about 10,000 highly active accounts per server for a total of roughly 100,000 highly active accounts spread throughout all the servers. That's close to a million bucks a month in player subscriptions. Do you think it costs SE more than $10,000,000 a year to maintain the staff and servers necessary to run FFXI? I would be surprised. It is likely this game is already profitable...

I would like to know where Sephrick got his numbers of 10-20,000 subs since january...

he got them the same way you do, through guessing

his numbers are more based on the misguided asumption that "players on at a single time = the only players on the server period and therefore that servers total population"

your numbers may be a bit high too, but i for one wouldnt doubt that there are "least least: 50k people playing right now, probly more

[Sephrick]

All i'm going to say at this point is that Yoshi P has mentioned servers having up to 4,000 players on at once during JP (?) prime time, which leads me to assume there are about 10,000 highly active accounts per server for a total of roughly 100,000 highly active accounts spread throughout all the servers. That's close to a million bucks a month in player subscriptions. Do you think it costs SE more than $10,000,000 a year to maintain the staff and servers necessary to run FFXI? I would be surprised. It is likely this game is already profitable...

I would like to know where Sephrick got his numbers of 10-20,000 subs since january...

Assuming their staff of about 150 make an average of $40,000 a year (I have no idea what Japanese salaries are like, only have American professional's salaries to base off of) that's six million just to pay your employees.

As for where the 10-20,000 comes from: It was initially stated that their goal with the sever merge was to have about 1,500 to 2,000 players per server. So 10-20,000 is a ballpark figure based on SE wanting 1,500 to 2,000 people on each of their 10 new servers. I can't find the quote right now as I'm posting from my phone and can't properly search. But will edit it in later.

But in the mean time, if you have a quote that states the servers now have twice that by all means, post it. I love to stay as current as I can.

[Matsume]

Assuming their staff of about 150 make an average of $40,000 a year (I have no idea what Japanese salaries are like, only have American professional's salaries to base off of) that's six million just to pay your employees.

As for where the 10-20,000 comes from: It was initially stated that their goal with the sever merge was to have about 1,500 to 2,000 players per server. So 10-20,000 is a ballpark figure based on SE wanting 1,500 to 2,000 people on each of their 10 new servers. I can't find the quote right now as I'm posting from my phone and can't properly search. But will edit it in later.

But in the mean time, if you have a quote that states the servers now have twice that by all means, post it. I love to stay as current as I can.

Hmm, turns out I misinterpreted this post: post 6 by bayohne

Hello! Producer/Director Yoshida here.

I’d like to update you on the current status and what’s planned for the future in regards to the current inability to create new characters on certain worlds.

First off, the core cause of character creation limitations is due to heavy lag in Ul'dah A-zone during the peak time in Japan.

There is a lot of NPC control going on in this town and also due to the current FFXIV server code, various player processes are being performed rigorously on the server. As a result, there are cases when the lag during specific peak times is more than the server can handle.

At the time of FFXIV’s launch, the number of concurrent users was around 4000/1 world, so looking at the entirety of the game, there is still some room to accommodate new characters.
However, looking at only Ul'dah A-zone, the limitation is being reached and if the population for this zone increases any more than the peak time numbers, it won’t be possible to play in Ul'dah.

We already have high-spec servers prepared for version 2.0 and we are measuring the stability, but the current server process code is still the current FFXIV version, so it reaches the maximum quicker than the version 2.0 server code (more than the capability, the thread works much more efficiently).
If characters are focused more in Ul'dah than this, since the server capability alone will not be able to handle it, we have limited the ability to create new characters.
(Regardless of how much we increase the capability for optimized version 2.0 code and threads, if the physical limitations for character lag in a single zone is hit, the result would be the same. The limitation would have more of a margin than currently, however.)

Below is how we are currently addressing this:

Implementation of measures to decentralize the population of Ul'dah in patch 1.22.
Expanded arrangements to further enhance server capability (Arrangements completed/need time for hardware delivery)
Preparations for introducing a new World (make it possible to address quickly based on the conditions)


First, after the implementation of patch 1.22, we will be checking how much the flow of players changes and implement countermeasures based on our estimates. If the decentralization effects work well, we will be removing the character creation limitations.
(As stated previously, the only problem is with Ul’dah A-zone concentration.)

Finally, as I am sure you have already guessed from the above text, Ul’dah is structured on the server by splitting the area into two zones: Ul’dah A-zone and B-zone. The zone that is heavy with lag is only A and B actually has quite a large margin still open.

I am praying that with patch 1.22 there is an effect for dispersing the concentration to B-zone.
(If there are a lot of comments from players saying “if you tell us about the zone split location we will cooperate!” then I will proactively look into this)

By the way, in a separate thread I saw a discussion going on about not being able to process 200 people in a raid, but there are not only players in raids, there are monsters, gimmick controls, and other things, so there is a lot of processes running at the same time.

Currently, even for the current FFXIV servers, we have been expanding so that instances are running on multiple servers. After maintenance, the number of simultaneous raids increased and the somewhat comfortable conditions are a result of this. It has also become possible to switch the number of instances and how they are split on multiple servers based on content.

We deeply apologize for these inconveniences.

That being said, I stand corrected: the servers were originally made to withstand 4,000 players at once each, but due to concentration in uldah (who knows how many one region alone can handle, maybe 200?) this area is experiencing problems (lol along with dragonhead now...)

[TheVedis]

Hmm, turns out I misinterpreted this post: post 6 by bayohne



That being said, I stand corrected: the servers were originally made to withstand 4,000 players at once each, but due to concentration in uldah (who knows how many one region alone can handle, maybe 200?) this area is experiencing problems (lol along with dragonhead now...)

even given that

during each servers peak hours, it sees upwards of 1000-2000 people right now(ragnarok being the exception) so around 1500 average over 9 servers...and maybe 700 or so on the 10th

i know some people are posting lower numbers, but they are also not posting peak hours, just random hours throughout the day

thats roughly 14000 people online during "peak" hours, which is a base nunber to go on, from there, you can easily double/triple the number to get what the real population is, which still falls well above the "10-20k" mark

of course the naysayers on here will post numbers during the lowest population times of the day to say otherwise, and then will go on to say that online population = total

[Matsume]

even given that

during each servers peak hours, it sees upwards of 1000-2000 people right now(ragnarok being the exception) so around 1500 average over 9 servers...and maybe 700 or so on the 10th

i know some people are posting lower numbers, but they are also not posting peak hours, just random hours throughout the day

thats roughly 14000 people online during "peak" hours, which is a base nunber to go on, from there, you can easily double/triple the number to get what the real population is, which still falls well above the "10-20k" mark

of course the naysayers on here will post numbers during the lowest population times of the day to say otherwise, and then will go on to say that online population = total

I'm just admitting that my 100,000 was completely off based on a wrongful interpretation.

[Arcell]

You say that yet we all know there are big changes coming in 2.0

You have no idea what it may turn into. Given their finacial gain on FFXI standard and the just embarrassing flop of FFXIV's release they may tune back in with what they know and what they already have a stable player base vested in.

They've already drastically altered classes, jobs, the battle system, crafting and a little of gathering. Why would they put these systems in only to completely re-do them again? 2.0 is the last of the changes, we've already got most of them. 2.0 is the server, graphics engine and world changes. The systems, I'm willing to bet, are going to be mostly the same otherwise. The direction they're currently going in is the one that they will keep going in post-2.0.

[Sephrick]

thats roughly 14000 people online during "peak" hours, which is a base nunber to go on, from there, you can easily double/triple the number to get what the real population is, which still falls well above the "10-20k" mark

It's all conjecture. What's your basis for "easily" doubling or tripling the number during peak hours? If peak times are when the most players are on at a given time how are there two to three times more players not in at said peak times?

If 14,000 people are on at the "peak" then that's the peak, not the lowest total number.