Let’s Talk about Toxikon.

[HyperiusUltima]

I have a bit of a grift with this ability for different reasons.

1) Requires Eukrasian Diagnosis shield to be broken to grant Addersting.

2) Instant Cast AoE on target for 330 potency(same as Dosis III) at Lv 82.

People can probably recognize the issue here - 1 is the most prominent because it requires us to go out of our way to spend 900 MP to break a shield for an AoE Dosis. This is a net loss pre-82 unless 2+, but feels too limited after 82.

One thing I think they should consider is using the Charge system for this ability similar to Phlegma instead of limiting it to just a net MP Loss. We can react to TBs faster than anyone else with Eukrasian Diagnosis, sure; but in raids this ability will not be used outside of weaving or 2+ enemies. Addersting could apply a “Reflect Damage” capability similar to WAR’s Vengeance when applying a shield this way.

While the Charge system is one idea, the other is having Addersgall convert to Addersting on use, while retaining the 700 MP recovery component. Thus, you are getting a refund for using Addersgall outside of the MP Recovery via free MP GCDs.

This would help their MP management as well, as even with Lucid Dreaming Addersgall must be used first to keep from going OoM.

[rewd]

Toxicon is just a movement tool and works fine for its purpose. It's not particularly exciting, but it does add a bit of planning.

[Saefinn]

Yeah, I think Toxicon does need some adjustments. I love the mechanic and the principle behind it, but it is not efficient unless there is consistent incoming damage.

The great thing is, if they can create more of a benefit to using Toxicon over Dosis they can keep the "I hate healers who don't heal" complainers satisfied (or at least with SGE) because they're giving an incentive to keep people shielded. I am mainly using it on big pulls or when people are taking consist damage where the shield is actually useful...or facetiously telling people to stand in AoEs for me so I have an excuse to use it.

Otherwise, yeah, the main benefit is mobility.

[HyoMinPark]

Toxicon could be adjusted to at least be DPS neutral versus a total loss—I’d like to have a reason to fish for them in a non-dungeon setting (casting Eukrasian Diagnosis on a tank between trash pulls gives a surplus of procs that are handy to use for movement when mobs are dropping their AOEs). I’m not sure if they will adjust it, since the development team lacks a dedicated healer “main”; and they have continuously struggled with healer complaints for several expansions now.

Perhaps if they made it an oGCD to weave instead—since on single target, Dosis III is your obvious go to over it (and Dyskrasia being the go-to in AOE outside of Phlegma). It being a weaveable ability would give it a bit more of a use outside of pure movement—which is nice. In a scenario where you aren’t moving as much and end up just overcapping on Addersting stacks, an oGCD gives you an outlet to prevent that without sacrificing a Dosis GCD. But perhaps that’s just me thinking about how I dislike overcapping/wasting resources. Granted, such a change would affect the “movement tool” aspect of it. With Pneuma requiring such close range, it can’t be a decent alternative for mobility if one has to travel a further distance from the boss.

I more so just have idle thoughts on it all right now based on playing it through the MSQ. My focus has not been on optimization yet since I’m only level 88. And I don’t have a proper setting for it. I’m sure I’ll have more opinions once I take it into the Extremes, and when Savage drops.

[nelothi]

Toxicon II is DPS neutral. its 320 potency, as is Dosis III (both level 82 skills), and its got no mana cost and is instant.
So its always worth using your 3rd stack to avoid capping (use it just before you generate what would be a 4th stack, but save stacks for movement if you know its coming)

It does feel weird that the skill requires you to break a Eukrasian Diagnosis shield, but dosnt have a higher potency than Dosis.

Giving Toxicon a potency higher than Dosis, but lower than Phlegma, would make the skill feel better to use.
As-is, its fine.. its just not particularly fun.

[HyoMinPark]

Toxicon II is DPS neutral. its 320 potency, as is Dosis III (both level 82 skills), and its got no mana cost and is instant.
So its always worth using your 3rd stack to avoid capping (use it just before you generate what would be a 4th stack, but save stacks for movement if you know its coming)

It does feel weird that the skill requires you to break a Eukrasian Diagnosis shield, but dosnt have a higher potency than Dosis.

Giving Toxicon a potency higher than Dosis, but lower than Phlegma, would make the skill feel better to use.
As-is, its fine.. its just not particularly fun.

Pardon, I was looking at the wrong potencies for both. So I stand corrected in that regard. But it doesn’t change my main complaint of the skill not being one worth chasing, and I’m not really a fan of such mechanics when it comes to job design.

In terms of potency it’s the same—but it’s still not worth fishing for outside of downtime or pre-pull shielding shenanigans. Personally, they should change that. It ends up being a “well cool if I have it, but whatever if I don’t” sort of ability. That’s what I was getting at.

[QooEr]

toxicon needs to be more damage than dosis. even if its a tiny bit more. Getting toxicons and using them feels satisfying... or it would, if i actually had any real reason to want to do that.

Whats the point of fishing for toxicons when phlegma and icarus give plenty of mobility to sage already? theres times where i get to a bodd wjth plenty of toxicons and prepull shields, only to realize that my efforts to fish for adderstings was pointless

[HyperiusUltima]

@HyoMinPark - We also don’t want to overbloat oGCDs either. We already have a ton of those tools as is and don’t want to overload ourselves. I’m ok with it being instant cast, but as people have said Toxicon needs a damage bump(like about 40 potency) to probably be worth the 900 MP you’re throwing at it post-82.

I’ve been throwing it pre-pull as well, and I don’t mind that in a dungeon setting. In a raid setting though, we’d be the first to react to on-demand TBs. In general, I’m still of the mind Addersgall = Addersting so that our shield isn’t a requisite bit more of a reactive planning tool to deal with TBs because the Shield potency is pretty good as weak as people think it is.

[Sylve]

Pardon, I was looking at the wrong potencies for both. So I stand corrected in that regard. But it doesn’t change my main complaint of the skill not being one worth chasing, and I’m not really a fan of such mechanics when it comes to job design.

In terms of potency it’s the same—but it’s still not worth fishing for outside of downtime or pre-pull shielding shenanigans. Personally, they should change that. It ends up being a “well cool if I have it, but whatever if I don’t” sort of ability. That’s what I was getting at.

Maybe I'm just wierd, But i view Toxikon the same way i view Misery.
That is to say, its a refund of sorts rather than a DPS booster. For mass pulls, the smoothest ones are those that i actively "fish" for Toxikon by keeping E-Diags on the Tank on every other GCD. If i crit, Dyskrasia while the shield holds. If no crit, Toxikon -> Refresh E-Diag. Repeat until trash is dead.

For bosses, i'll use it for movement phases over Dosis and when i know a fight has limited need to move I'll stack charges so i can drop 3 in a row after hitting Lucid to squeeze that bit more MP out of it.

I guess i see it more as an occasional free Dosis on a boss than something i desperately want to have. Kind of like how Misery mostly just feels like snatching back the lost potency from not casting Glare.

Then again, my preferred playstyle is to keep the party full while spending as many GCDs on DPS as i can. Do i do a little less DPS than someone who operates under the "Only the last hitpoint matters" mantra? Probably. But the way i play it eliminates the tedium of spamming 1 button for a minute straight.

[nelothi]

Pardon, I was looking at the wrong potencies for both. So I stand corrected in that regard. But it doesn’t change my main complaint of the skill not being one worth chasing, and I’m not really a fan of such mechanics when it comes to job design.

In terms of potency it’s the same—but it’s still not worth fishing for outside of downtime or pre-pull shielding shenanigans. Personally, they should change that. It ends up being a “well cool if I have it, but whatever if I don’t” sort of ability. That’s what I was getting at.

I agree. Toxicon should have a potency above dosis but below phlegma.
I do think it is worth casting though, saying it isnt is a bit disingenuous — as it is right now, you will always have charges to cast toxicon as long as you are actively letting your shield break on the tank before refreshing it. So not casting it is an MP waste, as it basically replaces dosis 1 for 1 and doesnt cost mana.

one suggestion would be for the whole dps kit to have their GCDs adjusted so that you can double weave Toxicon and Phlegma into your GCD after a Dosis cast.
This would not only be more engaging for your dps rotation, but also provide a decent heal to your Kardia target.

I went over a bunch of suggestions in a thread i just made that included this.