So how is whm doing?

[LuciaMirain]

I think for me it was, with "old" thin air, I was barely using LD at all. Now with the thin air nerf, I have to use LD alot more, and since I can't count on thin air to keep me on high mp at all times, my lucid will be down if I die while progging, which makes it basically impossible to recover mp to a nice level for a long time, even with two "free casts". I feel the difference is massive even when old thin air only gave you a couple casts (which were more than 2 anyhow) . I would never drop below 80% before with constant casting and now I am easily down to 50% after a while of glarespamming if I dont watch my mp. I just dont get why they did it, when you compare to what they gave AST in terms of mp.

[RinaShinomiya]

First off, Thin Air is 12s. How where you only getting 4 casts in instead of 5? Even with low SpS, 5 casts every Thin Air was possible, even more so if you used PoM in conjunction with Thin Air.
Secondly, PoM was on a 150s CD in ShB vs the current 120s, meaning it's up more often and putting more strain on your MP.
Finally, Old Thin Air had a much higher saved MP potential than you're playing it out to be. On mechanics like Terminal Relativity, you would cast things like Medica 2 and Cure 3 as well as any Glares you could fit in as well, so in those instances, Thin Air was saving you much more than the current iteration could ever hope to match. Even if both charges are available to get rid of the costs of Medica 2 and Cure 3, the Glare casts are still coming out of your MP whereas before that wasn't the case.

So yes, that mana deficit is absolutely enough to break WHM's mp economy.

The answer i was replying to was just about regular glare spamming. Im aware that in instances where multiple GCD heals are necesary the new thin air sucks but even if you consider glare 5th cast or more PoM uptime the difference is so tiny that it can be fixed by Assize restoring 5% more mana or being on a 30s cooldown.

[Silver-Strider]

The answer i was replying to was just about regular glare spamming. Im aware that in instances where multiple GCD heals are necesary the new thin air sucks but even if you consider glare 5th cast or more PoM uptime the difference is so tiny that it can be fixed by Assize restoring 5% more mana or being on a 30s cooldown.

Tiny in relation to our DPS spells. It's when you have to go into your Healing toolkit that it becomes a problem and while Lilies help alleviate some of that strain, they're slow to accumulate and only go so far.

[Liam_Harper]

The answer i was replying to was just about regular glare spamming. Im aware that in instances where multiple GCD heals are necesary the new thin air sucks but even if you consider glare 5th cast or more PoM uptime the difference is so tiny that it can be fixed by Assize restoring 5% more mana or being on a 30s cooldown.

It's not tiny. Your 1% difference math was off. That 5th Glare during the old thin Air or the new PoM resulting in extra Glares is 4% each time, almost an Assize worth. It's a delicate balance because it means the difference between going out of mana at 7 min 20 sec in an 8 min raid fight instead of at 8 min 30 sec.

It also doesn't help that Lilies are part of our mana economy, every lily cast is a GCD that cost 0 mana ...but we're punished with a dps tax for every lily we use.

This wouldn't be an issue if every healer was in the same boat and mana management, piety melds and dps tax considerations were a part of healing. But when AST and Sage have all the mana they want and tons of tax-free heals, WHM is suddenly far worse by comparison. There's also the fact that the old Thin Air was a perfectly fine ability and nerfing it was unnecessary.

[RinaShinomiya]

It also doesn't help that Lilies are part of our mana economy, every lily cast is a GCD that cost 0 mana ...but we're punished with a dps tax for every lily we use.

I feel like this is the crux of the issue. You're so concerned with 300 potency (well, 340 potency now. thanks squeenix) that you'd rather go oom.

Personally i don't believe previous Thin Air was perfectly fine. Using it on Glare feels like a waste of a strong ability and situations where 3+ GCD heals are required, that aren't lilies are rare. New Thin air is weaker but more flexible.
You did made your point however that WHM needs more of a mana push than what i initially thought on and i'd prefer that over Thin air getting reverted to its previous form.
SGE & SCH recover 21/20% mp every 60s so a Assize with 30s cooldown and 2 charges restoring 10% MP each would be a better solution (and also give WHM more OGCD heals).

[Ayer2015]

They could always add MP regen to Liturgy of the Bell. Present state, its a poor ability... especially for our lv90 ability.

[Silver-Strider]

I feel like this is the crux of the issue. You're so concerned with 300 potency (well, 340 potency now. thanks squeenix) that you'd rather go oom.

Personally i don't believe previous Thin Air was perfectly fine. Using it on Glare feels like a waste of a strong ability and situations where 3+ GCD heals are required, that aren't lilies are rare. New Thin air is weaker but more flexible.
You did made your point however that WHM needs more of a mana push than what i initially thought on and i'd prefer that over Thin air getting reverted to its previous form.
SGE & SCH recover 21/20% mp every 60s so a Assize with 30s cooldown and 2 charges restoring 10% MP each would be a better solution (and also give WHM more OGCD heals).

It's not so much the crux of the issue so much that the issue is just exacerbated by it. Of all the healer resources, WHM's lilies are by far the worst. SCH+SGE pretty much start out with 3 of their resource points off the bat, and get 3 back every minute. WHM starts off with nothing and only gets 2 resources in the same span of time as SCH/SGE. On top of that, SCH and SGE have a means of getting more of their resources to use with Dissipation+Recitation for SCH and Rhizomata for SGE which, again, WHM has nothing to contend with. The only benefit to Lilies is that they refund some of their damage in the form of Misery but it's still at a potency loss of 340 potency, with the only close comparison on any of the other Healers would be SCH losing 100 potency per E.Drain missed and that's still much less than what is lost on WHM.

I'm fine with Assize getting buffed to a 10% MP restore but WHM needs more than just that. If, as well as buffing Assize, Lilies were also improved in some ways, such as allowing them to accumulate on a 20s timer rather than a 30s one, WHM's MP economy would be much better off.

[RinaShinomiya]

It's not so much the crux of the issue so much that the issue is just exacerbated by it. Of all the healer resources, WHM's lilies are by far the worst. SCH+SGE pretty much start out with 3 of their resource points off the bat, and get 3 back every minute. WHM starts off with nothing and only gets 2 resources in the same span of time as SCH/SGE. On top of that, SCH and SGE have a means of getting more of their resources to use with Dissipation+Recitation for SCH and Rhizomata for SGE which, again, WHM has nothing to contend with. The only benefit to Lilies is that they refund some of their damage in the form of Misery but it's still at a potency loss of 340 potency, with the only close comparison on any of the other Healers would be SCH losing 100 potency per E.Drain missed and that's still much less than what is lost on WHM.

I'm fine with Assize getting buffed to a 10% MP restore but WHM needs more than just that. If, as well as buffing Assize, Lilies were also improved in some ways, such as allowing them to accumulate on a 20s timer rather than a 30s one, WHM's MP economy would be much better off.

It's really disappointing the Lily system wasn't expanded upon this expansion. I really liked it in Shadowbringers, even if it was 25% DPS drop (higher drop now). Just such a waste of opportunity (would also prefer if it wasn't backloaded like that, low level dungeons are a snoozefest).

[Silver-Strider]

It's really disappointing the Lily system wasn't expanded upon this expansion. I really liked it in Shadowbringers, even if it was 25% DPS drop (higher drop now). Just such a waste of opportunity (would also prefer if it wasn't backloaded like that, low level dungeons are a snoozefest).

I'm of the mindset that WHM needs an overhaul much like BLM got, with some additions to the toolkit so that the leveling experience is an overall positive one while also expanding the Lily system as a whole. Wasted opportunity is all WHM ever gets.

[Fawkes]

Can they just delete thin air and make it a trait for raise to have two free cast charges?