A NuMonk Rework

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

It had taken me a while to read through all of it, but as usual, I kind of like your Ideas, Shurrikhan. It also makes me happy to see that other people have had the same idea as me, to make Blitz more complex than just 3 smalls Blitzes, one a joke, and just one big Blitz. I am also in the middle of to write my own Blitz re-design idea, but it is not done, yet.

DewSlam's ideas also look good, while I like DewSlam's idea to just post our own ideas in here, instead of to make new threads, so I may post some of my own Monk re-design concepts in here, at some point. On a side note, the coincidences are hilarious to me, because some of my own ideas just happen to be very similar to what you and DewSlam have written here...

[Shurrikhan]

DewSlam's ideas also look good, while I like DewSlam's idea to just post our own ideas in here, instead of to make new threads, so I may post some of my own Monk re-design concepts in here, at some point. On a side note, the coincidences are hilarious to me, because some of my own ideas just happen to be very similar to what you and DewSlam have written here...

Absolutely; feel free. And I noticed the same with SpeckledBurd's stuff on the Monk Positionals thread. There are only so many ways to grab the low-hanging fruit, I guess.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Indeed... (A lot of the?) Monk Players around here in the threads seem to all have a general agreed on idea, for how to improve Monk, and just need to agree on specifics... If only the Dark Knight threads would be as consistent with improvement ideas... any way, I just now had been to finish with to make this Six Sided Star redesign idea...

Six Sided Star re-design idea

First, a buff to Six Sided Star’s potency, so that it hits for the exact same potency of any two normal GCDs, to make Six Sided Star damage neutral. This will give the Monk the free choice to either use three normal GCDs, or use one normal GCD and Six Sided Star, as the two options will have the same damage potential.

Additionally, Six Sided Star will grant one stack of the passive self-buff “Celestial Fist”, which will have a 10 second duration, and the effect of Celestial Fist will be: “allows the execution of a WeaponSkill that requires a certain form, without being in that form, and any additional effects that the action has will also activate, which includes to change form.” Celestial Fist will be able to pair with Perfect Balance, as well.

This makes it so that Six Sided Star could replace two normal GCDs as a valid alternative to a 1-2-3 rotation, but only as a free choice, as the normal 1-2-3 rotation will also still be a free choice, since the two options are equal in damage, and a neutral choice. As a side note, my ideal Monk would have oGCDs, to use after Six Sided Star, to make up for and take advantage of to consolidate two GCDs into one bigger GCD.

As for the numbers... BootShine(210), Leaden BootShine(310), True Strike(300), Snap Punch(250/310), Twin Snakes(280), Demolish(490/550), Dragon Kick(320). First, Demolish potency is too high, because of the DoT, so Six Sided Star should never replace Demolish, and only have Celestial Fist lead into Demolish. That said...

If we account for every possible combination of two, we get 490 as the minimum, and 630 as the maximum, where Six Sided Star is already 550, so.. by my estimate, Six Sided Star’s potency would need to increase to at least 590, if not higher, to be damage neutral with two GCDs. Celestial Fist could lead from Six Sided Star, and refresh either Disciplined Fist or Demolish’s DoT, while also have a potential rotation between refresh points, with Six Sided Star into Dragon Kick and Leaden Fist, into Six Sided Star again, with Leaden BootShine next, and loop from there...

All that said, Six Sided Star would be a optional alternative normal rotation, only outside of Perfect Balance and Blitz, as there would be no Beast Chakra from Six Sided Star.

and also this less-words re-design idea for Anatman...

Anatman re-design idea

If you do some quick research on the actual definition of Anatman, and what the reference is, you will come to find that it refers to a doctrine of Buddhism, which is "anattā", or "anātman", of which means "non-self", or "substanceless". This Doctrine states: "that no unchanging, permanent self or essence can be found in any phenomenon. that there is in humans no permanent, underlying substance that can be called the soul. Instead, the individual is compounded of five factors that are constantly changing."

So... If I were to base the in-game action Anatman, off of its source, to be honest... I think that it should serve the same purpose as Perfect Balance, and allow us to ignore the form requirements, to skirt around the combo system and use what ever actions that we want.

It could be a separate action that is more effective than Perfect Balance, which is what I would prefer, or Perfect Balance could even upgrade into a new Anatman, via high-level trait. My idea is some thing like the new Anatman could be more effective than Perfect Balance, but have a much larger CD.

for a example... Anatman grants six stacks of anattā, each stack the same as Perfect Balance stacks, but also with the Formless Fist effect, and a high enough duration, that the Monk can use three stacks, use a Blitz, then use the other three stacks, and use another Blitz, to gain both Nadi, and jump straight to the third bigger Blitz.
The new Anatman would essentially be two Perfect Balances in one, and allow for a immediate jump into a triple Blitz burst, while also have the Formless Fist effect, so that Twin Snakes still applies Disciplined Fist, and Demolish still applies its DoT.

[Shurrikhan]

Indeed... (A lot of the?) Monk Players around here in the threads seem to all have a general agreed on idea, for how to improve Monk, and just need to agree on specifics... If only the Dark Knight threads would be as consistent with improvement ideas...

To be fair, that's largely just because most have by now giving up on GL and stances, reducing the design-space to just different takes on how Blitz should fit, whereas there's a larger range in scope, still, for DRK's thematic precedents from which redesigns might draw.

Some critiques:

Six Sided Star re-design idea

First, a buff to Six Sided Star’s potency, so that it hits for the exact same potency of any two normal GCDs, to make Six Sided Star damage neutral. This will give the Monk the free choice to either use three normal GCDs, or use one normal GCD and Six Sided Star, as the two options will have the same damage potential.

Making it damage neutral will, counter-intuitive thought it may sound, be inherently not neutral, just due to the timings of Twin and Demolish (otherwise being clipped short). (This SS would never be permitted to let Twin drop except on Twin if and only if there are no Chakra spenders to be used in that lull, nor to cause a late Demolish.) Moreover, with it having a 10s PB-but-better attached via Celestial Fist, it's already allowing you to drop further low-ppgcd skills, just as PB itself and Blitz do, which means you'd want to rotate it as often as you could. Your high-SkS rotation might end up something like DK-Twin-Demo-Boot-SSS-DK-SSS-Boot-Twin-Demo, which would make MNK feel slow af. (Remember that BS and LF auto-crit, so they're effectively 315 and 393 ([320+465]/2) ppgcd, respectively.)

Moreover, why make a disengage tool so powerful? It'd then become a matter of just not using it within one of our 9-step rotational strings in order to leave room for a forced 1-GCD+ disengage or, depending on SkS, within the same string as a Blitz (especially a Lunar one).

I'd honestly really rather have this remain situational but just less clunky.

My idea is some thing like the new Anatman could be more effective than Perfect Balance, but have a much larger CD.

for a example... Anatman grants six stacks of anattā, each stack the same as Perfect Balance stacks, but also with the Formless Fist effect...

I think this would feel less nuanced and integral without even being any stronger, as we can only milk LF's higher filler ppgcd so long without refreshing Twin or Demolish anyways.

At present, Blitz is just long enough to optimize Twin and Demolish perfectly (so long as one never clips the GCD and is at a ~1.94s GCD or less). It fits great. The problem is simply that the 40s CD on PB makes you want to hold for a fresh DK-Twin-Demo string... which would then force you to delay the PB cast. I'd have to spreadsheet it out, but I suspect a ~30s CD would remedy that.

for a example... Anatman grants six stacks of anattā, each stack the same as Perfect Balance stacks, but also with the Formless Fist effect, and a high enough duration, that the Monk can use three stacks, use a Blitz, then use the other three stacks, and use another Blitz, to gain both Nadi, and jump straight to the third bigger Blitz.

This would merely trade a desynced 1st TK/PR for a either a desynced 2nd and longer lulls in core job actions, I would think.

I'm also not sure why we need to have TK/PR within the initial raid CD period (instead of merely at the 60, 120, 240, 300, etc., marks). We'd merely be balanced around that slight potency boost, after all, while the slightly more backloaded damage seems to better fit our identities. Unless you make Blitz available every 20s, which would then gut much of its nuance in optimizing Demolish and Twin (or, seen from the opposite end, LF filler between those two), you're going to have at least 1 in 3 RoFs without a TK/PR simply because TK/PR is only 1 in 3 Blitzes.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Some critiques:

Making it damage neutral will, counter-intuitive thought it may sound, be inherently not neutral, just due to the timings of Twin and Demolish (otherwise being clipped short). (This SS would never be permitted to let Twin drop except on Twin if and only if there are no Chakra spenders to be used in that lull, nor to cause a late Demolish.) Moreover, with it having a 10s PB-but-better attached via Celestial Fist, it's already allowing you to drop further low-ppgcd skills, just as PB itself and Blitz do, which means you'd want to rotate it as often as you could. Your high-SkS rotation might end up something like DK-Twin-Demo-Boot-SSS-DK-SSS-Boot-Twin-Demo, which would make MNK feel slow af. (Remember that BS and LF auto-crit, so they're effectively 315 and 393 ([320+465]/2) ppgcd, respectively.)

Moreover, why make a disengage tool so powerful? It'd then become a matter of just not using it within one of our 9-step rotational strings in order to leave room for a forced 1-GCD+ disengage or, depending on SkS, within the same string as a Blitz (especially a Lunar one).

I'd honestly really rather have this remain situational but just less clunky.


I think this would feel less nuanced and integral without even being any stronger, as we can only milk LF's higher filler ppgcd so long without refreshing Twin or Demolish anyways.

At present, Blitz is just long enough to optimize Twin and Demolish perfectly (so long as one never clips the GCD and is at a ~1.94s GCD or less). It fits great. The problem is simply that the 40s CD on PB makes you want to hold for a fresh DK-Twin-Demo string... which would then force you to delay the PB cast. I'd have to spreadsheet it out, but I suspect a ~30s CD would remedy that.

This would merely trade a desynced 1st TK/PR for a either a desynced 2nd and longer lulls in core job actions, I would think.

I'm also not sure why we need to have TK/PR within the initial raid CD period (instead of merely at the 60, 120, 240, 300, etc., marks). We'd merely be balanced around that slight potency boost, after all, while the slightly more backloaded damage seems to better fit our identities. Unless you make Blitz available every 20s, which would then gut much of its nuance in optimizing Demolish and Twin (or, seen from the opposite end, LF filler between those two), you're going to have at least 1 in 3 RoFs without a TK/PR simply because TK/PR is only 1 in 3 Blitzes.

my thanks for the criticism. The perspectives of other people tends to have a use and help with to refine my ideas...

my response for Six Sided Star:

Making it damage neutral will, counter-intuitive thought it may sound, be inherently not neutral, just due to the timings of Twin and Demolish (otherwise being clipped short). (This SS would never be permitted to let Twin drop except on Twin if and only if there are no Chakra spenders to be used in that lull, nor to cause a late Demolish.) Moreover, with it having a 10s PB-but-better attached via Celestial Fist, it's already allowing you to drop further low-ppgcd skills, just as PB itself and Blitz do, which means you'd want to rotate it as often as you could. Your high-SkS rotation might end up something like DK-Twin-Demo-Boot-SSS-DK-SSS-Boot-Twin-Demo, which would make MNK feel slow af. (Remember that BS and LF auto-crit, so they're effectively 315 and 393 ([320+465]/2) ppgcd, respectively.)

Moreover, why make a disengage tool so powerful? It'd then become a matter of just not using it within one of our 9-step rotational strings in order to leave room for a forced 1-GCD+ disengage or, depending on SkS, within the same string as a Blitz (especially a Lunar one).

I'd honestly really rather have this remain situational but just less clunky.

First, what if we change the durations of Disciplined Fist and Demolish's DoT?, then.
One part of my entire Monk redesign project, would be to extend the duration of Demolish's DoT, and I could just extend the duration of Disciplined Fist, as well; to make it so that neither have such a tight and often refresh demand? Second, I made Celestial Fist to solve a problem... Since Six Sided Star does not break form shifts, but also has no connection to the forms, so it would never be able to interact with the form shift rotation, so I made Celestial Fist be the key for how Six Sided Star would fit into the normal rotation lock...

That said, I do comprehend the problem that you point out here...
I did realize that Six Sided Star would replace True Strike and Snap Punch, more than much else, and that the rotation would be Dragon Kick, BootShine, and Six Sided Star, only broken up by Twin Snakes and Demolish... I did have a.. tentative.. new idea, to deal with that a bit, though. what if Six Sided Star has a short CD?(it would still be a GCD, so this CD does have SkS reduction) It would set the rotation to a back and forth lull, between the BootShine/Dragon Kick/Six Sided Star rotation, the True Strike and Snap Punch instead of Six Sided Star rotation, and then back to the BootShine/Dragon Kick/Six Sided Star rotation, when Six Sided Star comes off of CD...

and.. yeh... I forgot about the Guaranteed critical-hits. >.<
so, this CD tweak.. I think?, would make it so that Six Sided Star's potency only needs to account for True Strike and Snap?, since it would not replace any other part of the rotation, and fit into just that one point in the rotation... as for Disciplined Fist and Demolish's DoT, they could have durations that set their refresh deamnd to always be in the third rotation? Twin Snake/Demolish rotation, into Six Sided Star rotation, into True Strike/Snap Punch rotation, back into Twin Snake/Demolish rotation, and then Six Sided Star comes off of CD for the Six Sided Star rotation; while BootShine and Dragon Kick are the constant, present in every micro-rotation, of the Macro rotation.
would this solve the problems that you see in my redesign's first draft? and do you see any problems with this second draft of my idea?

that said, I am not certain what you mean by that Monk would feel slow, as a consequence... Ideally, and in this theory of mine, Monk has the oGCDs that I plan to give to Monk, so the Monk could single-weave in oGCDs at every GCD, and double-weave after Six Sided Star, for the illusion of high speed to remain intact. before you ask, I have some ideas for oGCDs that Monk would use often, so that Monk is single and double-weaving oGCDs at a constant, for a constant speed of around one attack every 0.8 seconds.

Last, is it not obvious that my redesign idea is for Six Sided Star to no longer be a disengage tool?
my idea is for Six Sided Star to instead be a piece of the normal rotation, to make the rotation more "complex", in the sense of a variation.

my response for Anatman:

I think this would feel less nuanced and integral without even being any stronger, as we can only milk LF's higher filler ppgcd so long without refreshing Twin or Demolish anyways.

At present, Blitz is just long enough to optimize Twin and Demolish perfectly (so long as one never clips the GCD and is at a ~1.94s GCD or less). It fits great. The problem is simply that the 40s CD on PB makes you want to hold for a fresh DK-Twin-Demo string... which would then force you to delay the PB cast. I'd have to spreadsheet it out, but I suspect a ~30s CD would remedy that.

This would merely trade a desynced 1st TK/PR for a either a desynced 2nd and longer lulls in core job actions, I would think.

I'm also not sure why we need to have TK/PR within the initial raid CD period (instead of merely at the 60, 120, 240, 300, etc., marks). We'd merely be balanced around that slight potency boost, after all, while the slightly more backloaded damage seems to better fit our identities. Unless you make Blitz available every 20s, which would then gut much of its nuance in optimizing Demolish and Twin (or, seen from the opposite end, LF filler between those two), you're going to have at least 1 in 3 RoFs without a TK/PR simply because TK/PR is only 1 in 3 Blitzes.

This one is more difficult for me to explain, because it is out-of-context, and makes more sense if you knew my entire Monk redesign project...

BUT, that said.. what made me have this idea in the first place, was that I have seen a lot of complaints about that Monk now has a barren downtime period, between the uses of Perfect Balance. My thought was that this new Anatman, separate from Perfect Balance, could replace Perfect Balance as the main "big burst", so that Perfect Balance can be the "small burst" that goes between the Anatman big burst; which sets Perfect Balance and its blitzes to be straight inside of that "barren downtime" period, and solve the downtime problem...

would it not work out that way? I thought that this idea would work out...
and I have seen other people make that same suggestion, to reduce Perfect Balance's CD down to 30 seconds, of which that I agree with.
while, I have also seen some people repeat the suggestion to just make Perfect Balance have three charges... I am not certain which option is better, while a curious thought for me, would be to ponder and figure out what the potential outcome would be, and what would happen, if both suggestions were given implementation...

also, here is a/the quick summary of another idea that I have had on my shelf:

(still in development)redesign concept for Monks' Chakra resource(just the summary)

The skeleton and backbone of my not-yet-complete redesign concept, takes the 14 Chakra of light and darkness as its base, 7 chakra for each side, to be a 14-point solid-resource dual resource pool, with the 7 Chakra of light as a fast build-up resource that the Monk spends often, with full-independent generation; and the 7 Chakra of Darkness as a slower build-up resource, that the Monk uses less often, albeit to execute more powerful actions; that is half independent in its generation, and half dependent on the Chakra of Light, for its generation...

Also, disclaimer: I came up with that before the Reaper reveal, and before we found out how Reaper resources function. The similarity, other than that one is sold-resource and one is gauges, is a total coincidence... I did not copy the Reaper to come up with that idea.

[Shurrikhan]

On SSS:

Again, personally, I just think the skill would work perfectly if it was just given the old Empyreal Arrow treatment (an oGCD that triggers the GCD) or, better yet, turned into a roll-over (an oGCD that adds a GCD's time to your existing time until GCD-refresh) and tuned accordingly (slightly more loss than a positional relative to filler ppgcd over its uptime cost, which may then in practice vary to be slightly less than a positional's cost just due to rotational opportunities thereby afforded -- such as trimming waste on Demolish/Twin or True/Snap casts per rotational string).

For my part, I want SSS to feel like a very ready, responsive, and applicable tool with a slightly lower use threshold, but I don't want it to be anything more than (or as would detract from) that situational tool.


On Anatman:

I feel like the barren-ness of downtime is only going to be worsened by making PB longer (i.e., in the form of your Anatman idea) or by having more charges because it'd feel like it's less integral in setting up or being set up by normal rotation. A 3rd charge would be especially bad, since you'd only go into "Blitz phase" every two minutes, with a minor "waste" or "prep" Blitz once between each, making Monk feel like a mere one trick pony whose mechanics are only really felt every two minutes... and in an all the more rigid way.

Blitz, at present, is what you might a mod-1 delay (as in, you'd reach your Demolish opportunity 1 GCD later in your rotational cycle). The Formless Fist at its end, though (and which I'd argue should be granted by consuming your last stack of PB, instead of by Blitz, even though it'd make our macrorotation more lenient), allows us to effectively adjust this by a further 2 GCDs. The 1-to-3 GCDs' mod value is huge for allowing us to optimize, and optimize from, the string before and after Perfect Balance. Since each of those are ~18 seconds, you're looking at ultimately a good 32 seconds per PB that can be tangibly affected by or tangibly set up any PB cast. The problem is just that it's 32 seconds... not 40, and we're almost inevitably going to lose a couple seconds perfect Demo timing off any two strings.

Moreover, the 40-second CD cause PB first, then RoF, to sync to periods in which Twin and Demolish are too far split from one another to make for a good Lunar Blitz (especially without having to waste a Solar earlier on for double RF under buffs). Just drop the CD to 30 seconds and boom, Blitz could potentially have an impact on or from every rotational string. (Not that it'd actually be used quite that way, since you'd want to bank both Blitzes for RoF... hence my suggested Blitz changes in the larger revision... Though, after playing Monk more at 86+, I'd actually be fine my version of Blitzes, too, those having a longer cooldown.) Such adds complexity... kind of... but not in way that exceeds the value that could be had by making it a bit more intuitive.

[meowmaou]

I like a lot of these ideas. If we're posting our own in the replies, then I had an idea I thought would've been cool for chakra.

Let the chakra meter get a second tier, have the orbs burn blue or red or something as you fill that tier, ie if you had 6 chakra then the first orb would be red/blue and the others would be the usual orange.

Then have a big strong as hell oGCD (or GCD if you have to) that takes a 10 stack but have it on a cooldown long enough, or on an animation lock long enough (like LB3 levels of animation lock here) that you're not ALWAYS building up to it, and still have incentive to manage the gauge to chuck out 5 stacks when it's a good time to.