6.0 Healer Feedback Thread

**RinaShinomiya** · 12-08-2021 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by KDSilver

Broil = Dosis
Bioysis = Eucrasian Dosis
Phlegma = Energy Drain
Toxicon = Ruin II
Dykrasia = Art of War

You forgot Pneuma, Sage has more and tbh if the SCH Job gauges weren't so clunckily designed we wouldn't even need ED as a button.

**Laphicet** · 12-08-2021 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Isharis

The strange part is they have 2 posts in this thread, both with a lot of likes and little value. I find it odd.

If you've been around these forums for any length of time you'd know them as someone who's been bitching about healers for a long time, especially WHM. The fact that the lack of care given to the most recent expansion on the healer front was enough to make them give up on healers entirely should speak volumes considering how militant they were about how WHM should be improved and related healer issues.

**Saefinn** · 12-08-2021 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by KDSilver

Same as Scholar.

Broil = Dosis
Bioysis = Eucrasian Dosis
Phlegma = Energy Drain
Toxicon = Ruin II
Dykrasia = Art of War

(of course, each spell don't have the very same effect, but that's their equivalent).
People called Sage having more dps option because Square introduced it as the "officialy recognized healer who has dps and healing working together", but he doesn't have more dps option.

There are a few differences here that I think help. The main one is that it doesn't feel like a single button spam, I mean there is some but not to the same extent. It's much better for AoE but less so for single target.

Eucrasian Dosis is Biolysis. But it has an extra step. It's 2 button presses. 4.0 SCH used to do 2 button presses for their main DoTs, Bio + Miasma. It's a seemingly small difference but it affects how its flow feels.

Toxicon is like Ruin II in that it has a benefit to mobility. Toxicon comes with an AoE benefit too. But it is tied to a separate mechanic unlike Ruin II and affects your healing style to in order to build up your Addersting. So I think this mechanic tricks the brain into it feeling like a 3 step process, because you have to Eukrasia -> Eukrasian Diagnosis -> [Shields breaks] -> Toxicon. Or you do it several times and then dump your stacked Toxicon. However, when it comes to single target, this is where Toxicon starts to be a potential DPS loss. And this is feedback we've given, because we like using Toxicon. If in the single target fight if the incoming damage is consistent enough then Toxicon gets more use.

Dyskrasia is Art of War for sure, but it's less offensive in that it is supplemented by extra AoE's. SCH just gets 1 AoE, SGE gets multiple.

Dosis is Broil for sure.

Phlegma - I can see why you put it as an equivalent to Energy Drain, but again this has a benefit to an AoE rotation and this isn't dependent on Aetherflow, which may end up reserved for oGCD heals depending on the situation or fight. And it's on the GCD.

Then of course, Pneuma, which has no SCH equivalent.

I think SGE DPS shines the most during AoE situations. For single target, it needs some adjustment.

So far my experience has been that I am not spamming Dosis or Dyskrasia as much as I do with Broil or Art of War. I am pressing more buttons and thus it feels busier.

I think it is a better experience. I think one still in need of improving, but it so far has been enough to keep it from being monotonous and feels like a step in the right direction.

**Alrin** · 12-08-2021 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

SGE is alright but something just feels off with it that I can't put my finger on.

When we vere chatting about healers in my FC I wrote something similar. I cant tell that I like it and I cant tell that I dont like it. Something about this job feels off. Cant tell why. I Just have this inner feeling.

**rewd** · 12-08-2021 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Saefinn

There are a few differences here that I think help. The main one is that it doesn't feel like a single button spam, I mean there is some but not to the same extent. It's much better for AoE but less so for single target.

Eucrasian Dosis is Biolysis. But it has an extra step. It's 2 button presses. 4.0 SCH used to do 2 button presses for their main DoTs, Bio + Miasma. It's a seemingly small difference but it affects how its flow feels.

Toxicon is like Ruin II in that it has a benefit to mobility. Toxicon comes with an AoE benefit too. But it is tied to a separate mechanic unlike Ruin II and affects your healing style to in order to build up your Addersting. So I think this mechanic tricks the brain into it feeling like a 3 step process, because you have to Eukrasia -> Eukrasian Diagnosis -> [Shields breaks] -> Toxicon. Or you do it several times and then dump your stacked Toxicon. However, when it comes to single target, this is where Toxicon starts to be a potential DPS loss. And this is feedback we've given, because we like using Toxicon. If in the single target fight if the incoming damage is consistent enough then Toxicon gets more use.

Dyskrasia is Art of War for sure, but it's less offensive in that it is supplemented by extra AoE's. SCH just gets 1 AoE, SGE gets multiple.

Dosis is Broil for sure.

Phlegma - I can see why you put it as an equivalent to Energy Drain, but again this has a benefit to an AoE rotation and this isn't dependent on Aetherflow, which may end up reserved for oGCD heals depending on the situation or fight. And it's on the GCD.

Then of course, Pneuma, which has no SCH equivalent.

I think SGE DPS shines the most during AoE situations. For single target, it needs some adjustment.

So far my experience has been that I am not spamming Dosis or Dyskrasia as much as I do with Broil or Art of War. I am pressing more buttons and thus it feels busier.

I think it is a better experience. I think one still in need of improving, but it so far has been enough to keep it from being monotonous and feels like a step in the right direction.

The issue with Sage is that the job always "feels like" and not "it is like". It feels busy, but it isn't busy. It feels like it has a damage rotation, but it actually has not. Toxicon/Addersting is such a painful noob trap à la Freecure with so many players spamming shields (because I'm a ~shield healer~) to fish for close to irrelevant Toxicons. Hell, Astrologian of all people feels like it has a more impactful AoE with Star being more powerful than Phlegma and Lord of Crowns, if you are lucky enough to get it. Not to mention WHM.

When a healer that adheres to the usual dull playstyle also has to trick you into thinking it plays differently/is busy, there is a problem.

**Saefinn** · 12-08-2021 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by rewd

The issue with Sage is that the job always "feels like" and not "it is like". It feels busy, but it isn't busy. It feels like it has a damage rotation, but it actually has not. Toxicon/Addersting is such a painful noob trap à la Freecure with so many players spamming shields (because I'm a ~shield healer~) to fish for close to irrelevant Toxicons. Hell, Astrologian of all people feels like it has a more impactful AoE with Star being more powerful than Phlegma and Lord of Crowns, if you are lucky enough to get it. Not to mention WHM.

When a healer that adheres to the usual dull playstyle also has to trick you into thinking it plays differently/is busy, there is a problem.

For sure I would like more complexity.
But how a job feels can make a big difference. DNC is dead simple but it feels good. RDM is dead simple but it feels good. DNC has a low personal DPS but when you do a Technical Step breaking 200,000 damage? It feels strong and I actually think it's a good way of keeping things balanced without feeling like a wet noodle. I guess this was their intention with Earthly Star too.

For SGE, however, my general issues with SCH have been over the monotony of a Broil/Art of War spam and how its healing abilities flow and how they don't always work together. But I actually like the healing tools and functionality SCH has to offer. Another gripe has been that I favour shield healing and for SCH it has ended up being a secondary focus in 5.0. One of my other gripes with SCH's kit (and any healer kit) is how little I would get to use the tools at my disposal, which is an issue with how content is balanced against the available skills. That latter issue may still end up presenting itself, I think it's too early for more to fully judge that one and if it does present itself...at least I am going to have a better time with it than SCH or WHM.

However, how the job flows and feels despite being practically functionally identical to SCH actually makes it enjoyable when SCH isn't. One thing I have referred to SGE is as a SCH with QoL changes or "what 5.0 SCH should have been".

But the main benefits I am finding is that:
- I am shield healing more
- I am finding the healing kit flows with itself better
- I am finding QoL in things like Pepsis over Emergency Tactics
- I am finding there is some breakage of the monotony of a single button spam

And when you think about it, those are all things I've asked for. DPS complexity is also something I've asked for, but they've pretty much said they're not going to do that and I was willing to compromise at "make it enjoyable". If my current experience of SGE remains consistent then they will have achieved that.

And to note: on having a DPS rotation as healer, I've generally been against the idea of a rotation, but a supporter or more options. A rotation can still cause people to tunnel vision and it doesn't feel good having to break a rotation to take care of healing. But a monotonous single button spam also can cause people to tunnel vision.

**Maxilor** · 12-09-2021 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by Alrin

When we vere chatting about healers in my FC I wrote something similar. I cant tell that I like it and I cant tell that I dont like it. Something about this job feels off. Cant tell why. I Just have this inner feeling.

My ONLY complaint about Sage and what feels funny to me is mana management.

On paper it seems fine, use OGCD Heals and abilities to gain 7% mana back.

But in execution a lot of the times when healing is not needed I end up almost going OOM because using a heal when no healing is needed would be a waste, but that's the only way for me to get mana back.

Essentially, Sage needs a dump like Energy Drain. The only thing we have close to that is Kerachole which can be used fairly often without being a waste but that's on a 30 sec cooldown.

**-BlueGreen-** · 12-09-2021 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by Alrin

When we vere chatting about healers in my FC I wrote something similar. I cant tell that I like it and I cant tell that I dont like it. Something about this job feels off. Cant tell why. I Just have this inner feeling.

Perhaps it's one of these points that have crossed my mind:

Spell speed increases don't help Eukrasia and the augmented spells. Those are locked to 1/1.5 GCD so that combined it's a 2.5 second GCD. This creates a problem where if your spell speed is high enough, your casting rhythm will be uneven. IMO, Eukrasia needed to be an ability and the augmented spells have standard GCDs so spell speed just works.
If, for some reason, you're stuck needing to focus exclusively on healing (bad team, heal check, etc.), Kardia basically becomes pointless. SCH's fairy at least tries to do something during such times, but if you're not DPSing, Kardia does nothing. This also interestingly means that in tearms of healing, Diagnosis is only a +280 potency heal over just tosing out another Dosis where as a SCH could cast Physic and maybe the fairy would add to it. Basically, even though you're a healer, it feels "bad" to actually heal directly.
Toxicon, at its current potency, is largely smoke-and-mirrors to make the job feel more interesting. Outside of the instant cast, I've found it is near pointless in boss battles, especially just building it up. You have to pay 900 MP to put up a shield that you need to break to get a "free" damage skill that does the same as Dosis. Better to just Dosis x2, let the tank eat the tank buster then come back with Druochole. It'll cost 100 less MP, deal 2x the DPS, and heal for only a little less (Eukrasion Diagnosis is 300 potency heal + 540 potency shield while a Dosis for a Kardia heal and weaving Druchole is a total of 770 potency healing for that first GCD, in the second GCD, Toxicon and a second Dosis both trigger a Kardia heal for another 170 potency heal in both contexts).

Now, trash pulls in a dungeon where you have tanks pulling wall-to-wall? Toxicon is a little less pointless as it's an AoE where it's generally better in total vs. Dyskrasia and breaks even before becoming worse for DPS only after a fairly large number of targets. Given that tanks generally do take significant damage at such times, it's usually necessary to put the full healing kit to work which means both Eukrasian Diagnosis as well as the Addersgall heals. This setup makes the alternation between DPS and healing such situations feel more natural if you can keep up with it. Reading other threads here, though, it's clear some players are struggling to switch targets rapidly enough for this to actually work.

IMO, since Phlegma is essentially melee-range to begin with, I feel like it'd help both Toxicon and Phlegma to have the same range/target as Dyskrasia so that you can use them while still targeting the tank (without the need for macros) and benefit from far less frequent target switching in big pulls. Sage would essentially just become a melee healer, which would help set it apart from the rest in terms of playstyle.

**Maxilor** · 12-09-2021 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by -BlueGreen-

Toxicon is a little less pointless as it's an AoE where it's generally better in total vs. Dyskrasia

That would depend on how many targets there was. I'm at work so I can't do the quick math, but how many targets would it take for Dyskrasia to do more DPS than Toxicon?

Reminder that Toxicon II is 330 Potency to first target and 50% less to all others...so 330 + 165 for each extra target.

Dyskrasia II is 170 to everyone no matter what.

**Liam_Harper** · 12-09-2021 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Maxilor

But in execution a lot of the times when healing is not needed I end up almost going OOM because using a heal when no healing is needed would be a waste, but that's the only way for me to get mana back.

It's not a waste if you get mana back. Weave it in and get some mana. It's not the best design, sure, but there's still no reason to go OOM on it. Overheal is only a big issue if you're losing dps over it, but oGCD's are free.

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