New summoner is unacceptable

[Deceptus]

Your rotation doesn't significantly change from level 22 to 85. It's a minute of mostly instant casts with some traits and a couple oGCDs sprinkled in here and there between the pretty lights. Specifically brand-new buttons per minute you get 1 Astral Flow (oGCD), half a Searing Light (raid buff oGCD), an Enkindle (oGCD), and Ruin 4 (GCD). Really incredible stuff. To add onto that, you get 3 more new buttons by 86 of which the only ones that have a rotational demand are Slipstream and Crimson Cyclone, the others are pretty much just silver platter'd. Reaper from 70 to 90 gets far more to sink its teeth into than Summoner from 22-85 and it's also regarded as a very simple class.

Healers basic damage rotation is the same from lvl 4 to lvl 90 (All of 2 buttons, one of them being a 30s dot). Cry me a river.

[DezereDawn]

Healers basic damage rotation is the same from lvl 4 to lvl 90. Cry me a river.

I'm personally pretty okay with new SMN but in their defense, a common pain point for a LOT of healer players is that their dps rotation is so stagnant and none of the current content requires the bloated healing kits they currently have, leading to a large majority of your kit seeing little to not practical use and glare/broil spam to win the day, which is extremely boring

[Recon1o6]

I'm personally pretty okay with new SMN but in their defense, a common pain point for a LOT of healer players is that their dps rotation is so stagnant and none of the current content requires the bloated healing kits they currently have, leading to a large majority of your kit seeing little to not practical use and glare/broil spam to win the day, which is extremely boring

Deceptus is one of many healer mains who have given up the healer role because of that glare/broil/malefic/dosis spam.

Even if we had the incoming damage to make use of our bloated healing kits, it would still be unacceptable because we still have do fates, hunts, solo duties, bozja, eureka etc.

Braindead is unacceptable state of affairs. The only reason sage is getting a pass right now is because its got the "newness" and is overpowered when in fact its the same 1 button spam nonsense and it plays like a mishmash of whm and sch rather than anything new.

give it a few months for the bottom of the barrel players to whinge about how they cant heal on sage and healers will be back to being in constant need.

[Dyvid]

Healers basic damage rotation is the same from lvl 4 to lvl 90 (All of 2 buttons, one of them being a 30s dot). Cry me a river.

If you didn't notice this isn't thread about how Yoshi-P screwed over Healers yet again, it's about how Yoshi-P screwed over SMN.

historically they don't take in much of what the non-japanese players have to say

Not true but we'll move along anyway.

Do you think Square soft could improve the summoner gameplay according to this topic?

Do they usually care about what players say?

I'm asking that because I'm not very happy with the new gameplay which is too easy to play...

They rarely make major changes to a job in the middle of a expansion cycle even went it's clearly needed. Thread can make an impact if; the Language speaking mods bring the ideas to the SE team and if the SE Team to include Yoshi-P would get off their damn high horse and really listen to the players feedback. I honestly think success have made the team rather arrogant from their humble beginnings.

[Skiros]

They rarely make major changes to a job in the middle of a expansion cycle even went it's clearly needed. Thread can make an impact if; the Language speaking mods bring the ideas to the SE team and if the SE Team to include Yoshi-P would get off their damn high horse and really listen to the players feedback. I honestly think success have made the team rather arrogant from their humble beginnings.

I don't get that vibe from them honestly. Rather, it just seems like they're now taking feedback from players who don't care about the game that much, or who don't know what they're talking about. If anything they should listen less to feedback from players who demonstrably are unable to achieve or excel in their roles. They should not be taking feedback on SMN from people who don't even have it leveled at 90.

[IdowhatIwant]

I don't get that vibe from them honestly. Rather, it just seems like they're now taking feedback from players who don't care about the game that much, or who don't know what they're talking about. If anything they should listen less to feedback from players who demonstrably are unable to achieve or excel in their roles. They should not be taking feedback on SMN from people who don't even have it leveled at 90.

You can't really tell if feedback is given from players who know the class or players who don't know the class. I think summoner is pretty dope right now, but it does feel lack it is lacking something to make it feel more whole.

[Melorie]

I don't get that vibe from them honestly. Rather, it just seems like they're now taking feedback from players who don't care about the game that much, or who don't know what they're talking about. If anything they should listen less to feedback from players who demonstrably are unable to achieve or excel in their roles. They should not be taking feedback on SMN from people who don't even have it leveled at 90.

It doesn't really help that the community is so loud, without reason. People barely try to spend 15*min on a dummy in order to understand a class, much less use it outside a leveling roulette and still feel like they should have a strong opinion on it (at least that's what I see with healers every day). Also, the fact that apparently the option of simply disliking a certain class and not playing with it for whatever reason doesn't exist. They must ask for it to change without even thinking twice what that "change" means.

[Shougun]

I don't get that vibe from them honestly. Rather, it just seems like they're now taking feedback from players who don't care about the game that much, or who don't know what they're talking about. If anything they should listen less to feedback from players who demonstrably are unable to achieve or excel in their roles. They should not be taking feedback on SMN from people who don't even have it leveled at 90.

It was a small change but the first change to the job after release was to increase the fire birb damage, a suggestion that if you didn't make I'm certain someone you agreed with made.

I don't think they're beelining people who don't master the job. I also don't think they should beeline for only those who master a job, I find those who tend to play a lot (not exclusively those who master do so, to note, just generally will be the case) if you listen to too much will slowly make the game more like a job and less like a game (for the rest of the players not like them). Something that makes FFXIV popular, I believe (to the point of being a near core tenant, if not actually), is that the game is generally NOT a job and doesn't do some of the classic MMO tropes of time killing (things they did in ARR they have each expansion tried to make less a part of their game, and it seems each step they make the game does better- not worse). There is some of course, as there absolutely should be, particularly the content that is freshly released for those more hardcore players, but it mostly slides down the hill and becomes more accessible and less extreme like (sans ultimate, though I know that gets a little easier with each expansion).

Like if you listen to only streamers who play the game as literal work, you'd start to align it more to how they approach the game.. literally their job with excess of time and including with a number of unique situations that the average user will not have access to. Classically referred to as 'streamer privilege's', which is a bit unfair since there are also cons to being a streamer, but on the privilege side one example is, if you're big enough to earn the privilege lol... groups on demand, even for obscure / old content - making their perspective a bit necromancer in capacity that most wont get, being one for example.

So I think it is important to actively listen to all parties, and find balance based on the goal of the game (which imo is generally casual friendly with an important pocket of content dedicated to the more hardcore at the end of the tunnel). Trying to meet that in all jobs but occasionally it might be wise to bias a group so like one job is for hardcore players, generally, and another for softcore.. lol. More important the numbers come out right in the end though, as that isn't something you can bias to one group very well unless you're doing limited jobs I guess.. (so the job definitely still needs some polish on the number end, given RDM is doing better and has better support at the same time too - last I checked). Like I think it's okay, and perhaps even good, to have a more straight forward white mage next to a more complicated yet similarly balanced alternative option (basically anything not white mage... XD).

The unfortunate nature here being the job is not new, it was changed, which makes it rough if people had a preference to the past. Though I do believe that in our current state we are in a good position to just add a few more layers in key locations such that it's more exciting for those who need it but is still relatively smooth and low button presence as it is now (I find low button part particularly neat, as I usually play Paladin which is a button pig... so having only two bars is just weirdly refreshing, also I've played MOBAs with only 5 keys and that is great fun, sheer number of buttons imo should never be seen as 'amount of fun' not that you were suggesting that, just a general statement). As some people have said simply hitting 86 has made it feel better, though some said it's not (but it has been a point that helps for some people). So perhaps they bring 86 down earlier and introduce another mechanic later? Or that later mechanic sooner, etc. Trying to ensure whatever is added can be neatly folded into the mix rather than perhaps a more difficult situation which was ShB summoner where adding a new mechanic might have been like adding a knife into juggling a ball a car and a chocobo.

I hope I've been consistent on not relishing other's disappointment, even to myself it is a bit simple (though it doesn't bother me either, which does make a difference from some people's feeling), but I also don't think it is particularly constructive, or true in this case, to say SE only listens to people who just don't understand the game (and therefore you could transitively suggest that SE themselves doesn't understand the game). The major change they made due to feedback was presentation and general theme focus, which it seems to have gone over relatively well with the majority of people- even those upset about the gameplay portion. The gameplay change had elements of player feedback but no player, as far as I am aware, made such a detail change that it excluded complexity - that was, imo, strongly just SE's choice and not at the fault of some player. A choice which I don't think is inherently evil / wrong, but I can see how given this being a pre-existing job that it could easily cause more frustration than just introducing a straight forward job, and I think asking / suggesting tweaks is fair game (though in general I'm always one for feedback, at least to me that is THE purpose for the forums). I also believe that SE has the ability to take their current design and tweak it easier than previously, and hence why I call it a good foundation, which is where suggestions may be valuable (including both the why and what).

Personally I strongly believe they listen to feedback, with a lot of evidence if you look at longer timeframes, just perhaps the time frames make it hard to see and the lack of communication making it less obvious on top of it.