New summoner is unacceptable

[Dyvid]

When the people complaining are advocating for reversion, that is exactly how those statements should be taken. Someone else made the best comment in the thread, which was to the effect that the people that dismissed naysayers of previous patches to summoner by saying they should try another job, should swallow their own medicine now.

Maybe, but one version had 8 years of history and solid fan base who feel betrayed by this redesign. It would be like me to ask that a job I don't play be completely redesign to my whims, and to hell with the people that currently enjoy it. I think your argument would have held up better with 2.0 when all jobs were new and fresh, were nobody had in vested ties to it.

[Melorie]

Also, acting like people that dislike the new version necessarily wants a copy and paste version of the old summoner or didn't recognize any flaws in the old version is such an extremist vision of the situation. There might be people that loved the new aesthetic changes, but disliked the lack of something else, or even enjoyed part of the new mechanics, but not all of them and so it goes. Acting like anyone that dislikes it is part of a beehive that wants to destroy what you enjoy is, again, egocentric, hysterical and childish even. I would refrain from even accessing forums for discussing anything if you're going to take things this way, it might be bad for your mental health honestly.

[Riusvell]

Also, acting like people that dislike the new version necessarily wants a copy and paste version of the old summoner or didn't recognize any flaws in the old version is such an extremist vision of the situation. There might be people that loved the new aesthetic changes, but disliked the lack of something else, or even enjoyed part of the new mechanics, but not all of them and so it goes. Acting like anyone that dislikes it is part of a beehive that wants to destroy what you enjoy is, again, egocentric, hysterical and childish even. I would refrain from even accessing forums for discussing anything if you're going to take things this way, it might be bad for your mental health honestly.

Hello, I'm one such person.
I'm mixed in regards to this but my general perception leans towards not good due to the problems I have listed. Always have I admitted flaws with the older iterations, because I hold the opinion... if you love something, you need to be willing to admit it's faults.

The excessive attempts at trying to drown out people's genuine concerns and feedback need to stop.

[aveyond-dreams]

Maybe, but one version had 8 years of history and solid fan base who feel betrayed by this redesign. It would be like me to ask that a job I don't play be completely redesign to my whims, and to hell with the people that currently enjoy it. I think your argument would have held up better with 2.0 when all jobs were new and fresh, were nobody had in vested ties to it.

If you were heavily invested in a poison mage with summons tacked on then Summoner was never the class for you to begin with. 8 years of history in this game where many regarded it as the worst Summoner in all of Final Fantasy is nothing to 20+ years of games where Summoners have a focus on Summon Magic.

I agree that a betrayal happened but it happened 8 years ago when they decided to twist Summoner into a WoW Warlock clone that ultimately failed. It even had "demons" in its description for goodness sake.

[Melorie]

If you were heavily invested in a poison mage with summons tacked on then Summoner was never the class for you to begin with. 8 years of history in this game where many regarded it as the worst Summoner in all of Final Fantasy is nothing to 20+ years of games where Summoners have a focus on Summon Magic.

Doesn't really matter what "summoner" means to you though, if it wasn't a real summoner or if you find it too similar to other class in another game, it was a class that a lot of people enjoyed and stayed in the game for years and people are allowed to have opinions regarding it. Dancer is nothing like the dancer from FFT and that doesn't mean that it doesn't belong in this game and people aren't allowed to like it.

Besides, this argument isn't very strong imo since again a lot of the "summoner" crisis was mostly aesthetic. They could fix the aesthetic part without compromising other forms of gameplay or even proposing a gameplay that might feel more on the middle ground while keeping whatever identity they wanted for summoner through aesthetic.

[Chocobits]

Doesn't really matter what "summoner" means to you though, if it wasn't a real summoner or if you find it too similar to other class in another game, it was a class that a lot of people enjoyed and stayed in the game for years and people are allowed to have opinions regarding it. Dancer is nothing like the dancer from FFT and that doesn't mean that it doesn't belong in this game and people aren't allowed to like it.

Besides, this argument isn't very strong imo since again a lot of the "summoner" crisis was mostly aesthetic. They could fix the aesthetic part without compromising other forms of gameplay or even proposing a gameplay that might feel more on the middle ground while keeping whatever identity they wanted for summoner through aesthetic.

So, re-implement previous summoner as the DoT mage job that it always was, with the feeble attempts at summoning aesthetics removed, and allow people to have the "complex", DoT-based DD they always had? I am all for that. Summoner and that job should go in completely different directions, but sure, I'd be all for implementing aspects of the job that people liked in another form. Necromancer would work with the DoT archetype, and you'd get cute little skeletons or something?

[Melorie]

So, re-implement previous summoner as the DoT mage job that it always was, with the feeble attempts at summoning aesthetics removed, and allow people to have the "complex", DoT-based DD they always had? I am all for that. Summoner and that job should go in completely different directions, but sure, I'd be all for implementing aspects of the job that people liked in another form. Necromancer would work with the DoT archetype, and you'd get cute little skeletons or something?

That's actually a good idea, imo. Personally, throwing away the mechanics of summoner altogether is a waste, the game obviously have a rigid combat so killing the few combat ""formulas"" we have isn't a smart choice. They could clean it up and make something out of it. Hopefully next expac? But I don't blame people that mained the class because they enjoyed the flow of the class somewhat and are feeling frustrated.

AST was completely changed on SHB and I'm still not over it tbh.

[aveyond-dreams]

Doesn't really matter what "summoner" means to you though

Then the same could be said to all of those who keep complaining that Affliction Warlock has been finally removed from the game. In any case dot gameplay was too boring to be stuck onto a class like Summoner anyway.

Perhaps if that crowd were able to behave more reasonably they might get their dot caster class of their dreams added into 7.0. But if I had to choose between adding another limited job or a dot caster at this rate I probably lean more towards another limited job, because those fans are nowhere near as "enthusiastic" as some of the affliction warlocks that we have left behind that routinely verbally abuse and insult others by attacking their level of competency and intelligence.

So yeah, maybe pandering to this crowd of players who *believe* themselves to be the best was not such a good idea to begin with.

[Melorie]

So yeah, maybe pandering to this crowd of players who *believe* themselves to be the best was not such a good idea to begin with.

Again this is not about a certain crowd vs the rest. I haven't seen anyone thinking they are the best or something like that? People played with a job for years and that job was changed dramatically without any regard for the mechanics it had, they are allowed to have an opinion regarding it and even mourn the job. You guys gotta stop this little war inside your mind.

Also what about "if they behave reasonably"? Summoner from 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0 was created by Square Enix, not by warlock fans or whatever. I don't know why you are mad with people that played something Square gave them and liked it, honestly.

[Rin_Kuroi]

poison mage

I really don't understand where this is coming from. From a lore perspective Bio and Miasma (which aren't poisons tbf) made perfect sense. The whole concept of a summoner is they drain someone's incorporeal aether and use it to summon a primal. Hell, it's the core idea behind a lot of this game's lore. The claims of poison mage or wow warlock or whatever make no sense to me.

I can understand not liking the mechanics of the old summoner. It certainly had its flaws but summoning bahamut and phoniex absolutely made people feel like a summoner.

Also, I don't understand why these three new elemental summons make you feel like a summoner now when before you didn't. It's not like they are brand new pets. I used both ifrit and garuda day to day. Poor titan needed work. I didn't even use him while solo anymore. I feel like these new elemental summons are just low tier trash. Why aren't we summoning Alexander, Diablos or Knights of the Round? All of which we've seen in game.