New summoner is unacceptable

[Riusvell]

Lol what does any of that do with the job also since you want to go into that.
Garnet had her summons stolen, Ramuh was going to follow her regardless he was just testing her will. Non of that had to do with her job lol.

Also in the series since only 4 jobs could be picked
Lets look at ff5 if i had butz as a summoner to get white magic I had to sub job it with white mage, same with black mage or blue mage.

Ff6 terras parents were summons so she got bloodline magic tbh.
Ff7/8 had no jobs so skip.

Nice how you ignored the specific "Canonical Summoner" and me stating that the ones that are, which are four characters in total, actually did have contact with their Summons and a bond.

Job picking in the series, be it FF3, FF5, FFT, FFTA or FFTA2 isn't relevant to this.
And your example of Terra shows that people make connections and bonds with these beings, so yeah. You just have proven yourself wrong.

It is even explicitly stated in FF9 and even XIV that the horn acts as a means to communicate with one's summons.
If I recall correctly, something of a bond is also stated in Final Fantasy 3, the origin of the Job.
So I ask of you yet again. What is your point?

[FusiaRain]

Nice how you ignored the specific "Canonical Summoner" and me stating that the ones that are, which are four characters in total, actually did have contact with their Summons and a bond.

Job picking in the series, be it FF3, FF5, FFT, FFTA or FFTA2 isn't relevant to this.
And your example of Terra shows that people make connections and bonds with these beings, so yeah. You just have proven yourself wrong.

It is even explicitly stated in FF9 and even XIV that the horn acts as a means to communicate with one's summons.
If I recall correctly, something of a bond is also stated in Final Fantasy 3, the origin of the Job.
So I ask of you yet again. What is your point?

What do people have to do with anything also im not ignoring it.

People mean nothing, in this disscusion.
Its function does its theme does.

Also that is from naive hope of writtersbounds mean nothing because everyoe will betray you, and forget you when they find a new tool to play with and hang with.
P
People who are blind to the reality that others do not matter, in the end you only have yourself.

Stop using the rainbow naiveness from writters hope in a world that will never have that because people are just traitors at the end of the day.

[Shougun]

Spent a lot of time debating what makes a summoner, strongly imo, mechanically summoner has done so much that it really can be whatever the Thal's halls SE wants it to be, however visually it has been EXTREMELY consistently a job summoning grand beings to do grand things (except ARR SMN). ARR SMN was honestly a great job, at least imo lol, just a bad SMN (strictly speaking FF SMN not the generic term "I summon familiars therefore I am a summoner" which is different).

This though why I've never been too strict on how they do the mechanics just as long as they ensure the imagery. I do hope some of the people upset with the job give their feedback again after 86, as I think that is going to be a nice moment to reflect on perhaps what the job is missing in their mind. Not saying "you have to like it" just that I think the feedback will be more valuable to SE after that point has been reached.

[Riusvell]

I've come to understand that you simply cannot be reasoned with and there for am no longer even going to attempt any form with discussion with you. The ignoring of my points and the hostility makes it incredibly clear.

So, back on topic.
Ifrit needs to be changed, definitely. It shouldn't go beyond our base cast time/global cooldown as it feels incredibly off. Especially now with the less cast time of Ruin 3.
Summons need to become off global cooldowns so our Ruin 3 and 4 at least have a use.
Same for Bahamut and Phoenix, the one second time is way too short. (In terms of getting the last attack out.)

Note. I am level 86 at the moment, the point "where everything becomes better." (supposedly)
But the clunk is clear as day and needs to be addressed.
And yes, I am still of the opinion it's incredibly unfinished. This shouldn't have shipped as is, and needed more playtesting.

[FusiaRain]

I've come to understand that you simply cannot be reasoned with and there for am no longer even going to attempt any form with discussion with you. The ignoring of my points and the hostility makes it incredibly clear.

So, back on topic.
Ifrit needs to be changed, definitely. It shouldn't go beyond our base cast time/global cooldown as it feels incredibly off. Especially now with the less cast time of Ruin 3.
Summons need to become off global cooldowns so our Ruin 3 and 4 at least have a use.
Same for Bahamut and Phoenix, the one second time is way too short. (In terms of getting the last attack out.)

Note. I am level 86 at the moment, the point "where everything becomes better." (supposedly)
But the clunk is clear as day and needs to be addressed.
And yes, I am still of the opinion it's incredibly unfinished. This shouldn't have shipped as is, and needed more playtesting.

I know you point but its a naive notion.

Your point is we should accept all new people hug and be happy to grow and get better as summoner storys in past ganes said. That all will be better when sharing with others and all that nonsense.
Sacrficing yourself your heart for others isnt a good or right thing.

You were saying im not a "fan of ff because i ignore its life lessons.

[Rin_Kuroi]

I know you point but its a naive notion.

Your point is we should accept all new people hug and be happy to grow and get better as summoner storys in past ganes said. That all will be better when sharing with others and all that nonsense.
Sacrficing yourself your heart for others isnt a good or right thing.

You were saying im not a "fan of ff because i ignore its life lessons.

You sound like a child to be honest.

[Shougun]

I've come to understand that you simply cannot be reasoned with and there for am no longer even going to attempt any form with discussion with you. The ignoring of my points and the hostility makes it incredibly clear.

So, back on topic.
Ifrit needs to be changed, definitely. It shouldn't go beyond our base cast time/global cooldown as it feels incredibly off. Especially now with the less cast time of Ruin 3.
Summons need to become off global cooldowns so our Ruin 3 and 4 at least have a use.
Same for Bahamut and Phoenix, the one second time is way too short. (In terms of getting the last attack out.)

Note. I am level 86 at the moment, the point "where everything becomes better." (supposedly)
But the clunk is clear as day and needs to be addressed.
And yes, I am still of the opinion it's incredibly unfinished. This shouldn't have shipped as is, and needed more playtesting.

Glad you made it thus far to give feedback, sorry it hasn't been good for you.

Interesting you find it clunky since it seems to be relatively streamlined, especially compared to the previous edition (which I wouldn't say was awful, it didn't bother me, but it did feel like castles built on castles). Is it clunky more like.. "this doesn't feel good" than clunky like the pieces don't fit together? Feels like everything flows really quickly, imo. So I'm just having a hard time feeling that emotion with you.

Obviously you feel ifrit is off, though I feel not as much given it looks like it exists two fold:
a) to be different than the others (which I guess isn't "enough" reason to exist but I do see it as "one" of) and-
b) More importantly I believe it exists to explicitly be a fast cast eater, allowing it to be more fairly balanced to the DD side of things than more on the support side (though I haven't seen the numbers of level 90 jobs played well, to see where the jobs fall on the spectrum- maybe the job needs a buff, maybe not).

I could see being basically forced into giving up fast cast as being an annoyance tho . . .

Further Ruin does seem to exist solely to be an odd ball filler spell... rather than something neat to weave in or have a home that feels well for. Though with some of the oGCD suggestions I saw from you, at least to me, it seems going back to the other summoner where people complained about hurting their hands lol, not saying that can't be enjoyed but was the original ShB SMN where egi assaults were hyper aggressive your preference? The one where you pressed buttons like they were your enemy and needed erased lol. Or more like "at least a little bit more" but not necessarily like when it was at it's most chaotic?

Personally wouldn't mind Ruin 3 / 4 system dying to some other new primal related skills, but that's just an endless bias to more and more primal lol. By dying I don't mean less to do, just maybe something else (like I suggested the proc system that grants primal infused fester, painflare, and maybe even support skill where of course you need to choose one of the three). The proc being in addition to normal use from energy drain not replacement (so certainly more, and of course the proc is going to be oGCD). Maybe particularly also because I feel Ruin 3 / 4 is more more vestigial feeling than before where it was a core part of the job, and I already am more "meh" about anything that isn't strictly primal related :3. Certainly making it feel more 'fitting' (or replacing it with something else) wouldn't be awful (regardless of how).

For the demi phase I wonder if they could be a bit courteous like they were for requiescat and give a bit more time than needed for them but have them have a counter (like the egi) so you get to whatever was the amount of casts SE was planning for balance. I suppose someone might want spell speed as an opportunity to optimize (which using the requiescat system would forgo..). /shrug?

[Riusvell]

<snip>

I'll mark your points bit by bit where I can, ok?

Interesting you find it clunky since it seems to be relatively streamlined, especially compared to the previous edition (which I wouldn't say was awful, it didn't bother me, but it did feel like castles built on castles). Is it clunky more like.. "this doesn't feel good" than clunky like the pieces don't fit together? Feels like everything flows really quickly, imo. So I'm just having a hard time feeling that emotion with you.

Ifrit's general attacks being longer than what your innate Global Cool Down is, throwing it off compared to using your regular own casts.
Slipstream is the same issue. If they would either make it so that it would have either; 1) Ifrit's GCD affects your own or 2) Ifrit follows your GCD in terms of cast and recast timer. That would smooth things over somewhat.
Sadly, as a person I am incredibly susceptible to when things don't feel right in terms of gameplay and notice it right away.

Further Ruin does seem to exist solely to be an odd ball filler spell... rather than something neat to weave in or have a home that feels well for. Though with some of the oGCD suggestions I saw from you, at least to me, it seems going back to the other summoner where people complained about hurting their hands lol, not saying that can't be enjoyed but was the original ShB SMN where egi assaults were hyper aggressive your preference? The one where you pressed buttons like they were your enemy and needed erased lol. Or more like "at least a little bit more" but not necessarily like when it was at it's most chaotic?

Personally wouldn't mind Ruin 3 / 4 system dying to some other new primal related skills, but that's just an endless bias to more and more primal lol. By dying I don't mean less to do, just maybe something else (like I suggested the proc system that grants primal infused fester, painflare, and maybe even support skill where of course you need to choose one of the three). The proc being in addition to normal use from energy drain not replacement (so certainly more, and of course the proc is going to be oGCD). Maybe particularly also because I feel Ruin 3 / 4 is more more vestigial feeling than before where it was a core part of the job, and I already am more "meh" about anything that isn't strictly primal related :3. Certainly making it feel more 'fitting' (or replacing it with something else) wouldn't be awful (regardless of how).

I would prefer to keep Ruin 3/4, it's a nice unsaspected spell that never really got tied to an FF job. Plus I really love the animation of casting it. Though the part that I'm going to italicize is the one I'll adress in this part. The issue is, with the normal primals is that it feels extremely awkward to use and fit in. There is no down time and no way to utilise the lessened cast time (but not lessened global cool down) on Ruin 3. It is not the hyper aggressiveness that I want, it's that I want to feel like I have a bit of space to think, not rapidly press the glowing buttons of the three primals. Not to mention the awkwardness of the Demi summoning, we essentially waste time waiting for the global cool down to be up again while the timer ticks down. Yes, it's nice to... *checks list* press 2 buttons.

It also feels bad to spam ruin 3 and then see that while it had gotten off cool down, you can't press the summon button because you triggered a global cooldown. Having only pure Summoner stuff is also... frankly, very boring. Like it will take the wow factor away and make you overexposed, too used to it.

It's why I had started really disliking Bahamut, due to overexposure, and now I wish I never hated him that much as I generally miss his presence. It's weird what a few seconds can do to a person.

[zylo1010]

Now that I've been able to get in and tinker with lvl80 smn. I personally like the direction they've taken the class. I will always miss ffxi smn but I understand it won't work here just like ffxi Blu doesn't.
I'm looking forward to maining smn finally as I've wanted to since I started playing but couldn't get over the feel of the original ffxiv smn.

[Floortank]

Why are we not adding more skills in each Summon window that is more than just press 1 or Gemshine? How about using Fire, Wind, and Earth attunements to meaningfully change what you can do in a Bahamut window? What about varied gameplay within each Summon window? For example, in Ifrit, on top of the gapcloser that we have, why not make the grimoire turn into a flaming sword that you can use to attack the enemy, for which you have to be in melee range for, but also keep the Fire Attunement Gemshine? In Titan, what about a skill that allows you to apply earthy shields onto the party that deals reflected damage to a boss? In Garuda, how about creating a vortex that gives you a boost to wind damage if you stand in it? Those are little things that will not make a baseline acceptable gameplay too hard for players, but add more optimization decisions to the rotation (by thinking about when Titan is best used in an encounter to maximize reflected damage, thinking about when you can stand in melee range, and thinking about when you can stand in a Ley Lines-equivalent during an encounter). They are optional, but they will be fun to think about. A proper summoner theme vis-a-vis the traditional FF style and complexity does not have to be mutually exclusive. And complexity does not have to be mutually exclusive with accessibility, by making sure that the room for optimization is optional and largely do not rely on button bloat.

I haven't gotten to try new SMN yet, so I have no comment on whether it's good or bad, but these ideas are really good, and illustrate your criticism well. I'll be looking forward to testing the game against your complaint, so I thank you for this. I didn't main SMN before but I do recall the lack of fun in its old rotation so I'll be testing against that, too.

I think your ideas here come from a meritorious place, though I do think that a leylines style addition to SMN wouldn't work with its high mobility phases. It's not a caster built to be anchored to a spot. Your post was good though, thank you.