New summoner is unacceptable

[Rin_Kuroi]

There is no point in complaining because a) it's been stated they don't even look at the US forums so why bother, b) they aren't going to make any mechanical changes mid-expansion, c) at best we will see numbers tuning sometime within the next year.

I did not know this. What a waste. Good luck to ya.

[Shougun]

Been thinking some more, as I do think the current foundation is decent but can see how people who were used to more now feeling like "this is a puddle, especially pre 90" (though may also note some people may want that, just that I respect the potential frustration when a job that you did like which had a famously stacks on stacks on stacks system moving to something so clear). The current system, especially once you consider 90 skills, probably wouldn't drive me crazy even in high-farm settings (on a dummy, and speaking over all of the theme changes I like this one more), but I also don't relish that some people feel lost now and I think we might be able to use the current setup without going back to old problems. And not losing too much of what some people like about it now.

Particularly, again wanting to note that the level 80-90 Summoner skills come with more depth (like new astral flow skills). I think a really nice change for gameplay feeling then would be bringing astral flow skills for the ex-egi much earlier, as that would help add a lot more 'to do' and less press one button which was one complaint. I'm not saying it would suddenly be perfect for all the complaints I see, but I do imagine that is going to help a lot for a lot of players. If you read 80 to 90 skill tooltips (level 86 particularly), or watch if you have difficulty imagining, I think that is something that should be introduced not only at 80 but probably even earlier than that (obviously the level 86 talent can still exist to "take it to the next level" in terms of the visual flare). It looks like a really important component of making the job feel more complete and probably shouldn't be so late, as players will still sync down on occasion.

Just making the astral flow skills come in sooner for egi phases I think would help by "that" much. Especially since each egi phase astral flow behaves differently, which means not only more things to do but each step being more interestingly different- this is a two for one moment.

Something like Bard or Dancer's proc mechanics may also potentially help break up some of the elements people are describing, while adding another nice level of 'primal'. For example you might proc titan, changes fester into Gaol (an interrupt/stun, bosses ignore of course, with fester damage) using this Gaol doesn't trigger Fester's cooldown (so you might have energy drain up but then you proc'd, so you could Gaol, Fester, gemshine gemshine, Gaol, etc). This could be done to painflare too, so you get two choices based on the situation, but like bard you can't use both bloodletter and rain of death on the same proc. Another example Ifrit fester could be the nail (increasing the damage for the remaining ifrit skills, can stack as more nails appear if you're lucky), painflare then is eruption (which does like the fight does and trigger multiple times). Though it's important to make these procs not annoying (so they shouldn't be in the 'way' of using fester/painflare, but a pleasant bonus- which is why in the gaol example it does fester damage, the nail probably should also do that, it's not a strict requirement but keeping them pleasant bonuses is important).

May then consider a skill with charges that 100% procs this effect which may make openers more exciting, but also give you some more control in situations that need it, with a cooldown long enough to not line up with always using the skill on the same primal step. To prevent "always use this on X, the other ones are a waste", long enough doens't mean 'long cooldown' ideally it isn't that long, it just means don't make it always perfectly line up with the same phase such that players use it only that way, too short might mean it has to be weak which is where you want to find the balance of short vs long vs being stuck using it only one way. This idea I think could also branch into the support skills in a really nice way to add big value to the physick skill slot, but that's detailed next (below).

Some more complicated / hazard ideas (not as easy to balance / may be large changes, particularly the last one):

This is more of a personal suggestion but I think I can make it more inline with people wanting some decisions. Which is to make Physick another skill that changes based on situation (seems like such a dead skill, I'd love for it to get some love and I think this is a good way), and in this case is a support slot skill. Give it charges (or use the above proc system). If not using the proc system may consider making it consume attunements (the buffs that allow you to cast certain damage abilities), or some other not frustrating but logically "you're doing this as a choice and not because it's free" (not entirely akin to clemency on Paladin but going towards that). The reason for proc or attunement cost being is it allows the support to be more valuable without messing up balance (there is a cost), which isn't to say all the skills that exist within the slot have to be zero damage.. just that BECAUSE it costs it therefore can be far more interesting than a weak oGCD cure or something. These skills also noting don't always have to be worse than a damage skill as I think that could a lot of depth, especially if you do it in situations where it is okay. Example of support could be Earthen Shield for Titan, granting a shield that can explode dealing damage (in the situation of a trash pack perhaps the end result is more damage and support at the same time, but in a boss fight you'd just mostly be gaining the opportunity to help your tank survive a crazy blow while one of your healers is dead), etc. (Can think of more if that is considered an important thought experiment).

Alternatively if you use the above idea of a proc system (with that extra skill that can manually trigger the proc, with cooldown) that then you can have it such that when you proc your step your physick changes too (and so you lose damage if you pick it but it'll be an oGCD of merit, meaning you have that extra diversity and choice to the job without it having to hugely impact your potential maximal damage). Particularly I think this combo of support skill mutation + the above proc system (and manual trigger skill), would work well in the current scheme and add quite a bit more opportunity to press different keys and make different choices. Especially if some of them have something a bit extra that makes them stand out besides "single target, aoe, support". Using titan as an example you might be in a aoe setting but you have want to use gaol (single target fester morph) anyway because it's a 5 second stun and there is on particular monster who is a huge pain when it uses that one skill you know is coming up (or is already coming up), and the titan painflare proc doesn't have CC but does something else interesting depending on setting.

May also consider moving phoenix rekindle to this then and give the astral flow something else, love the idea of that spell just not sure of it being on Astral Flow. Special note that not each support skill needs to heal. An aside- This is probably borked for balance but perhaps either on rekindle (keeping it as astral flow) or as the new astral flow- casting it on an enemy causing good damage and a middling aoe cure or casting it on an ally giving them auto-raise (on a short timer), dealing minor aoe damage, and healing them, if they don't die during the auto-raise timer they heal again and deal minor aoe damage again.

Another, is group of spells on a slot that bridge beyond themselves- transcending the phase they exist upon (and this could potentially add a lot of depth to the job, or not if they're similar enough, but could at least add more things to do then). Say for example you use Emerald (or ruby) dream (Carby) which causes them to tag everyone nearby with Carbuncle Reflect, granting a small shield that went touched causes attackers to receive minor damage back (more for magic, it's reflect). Each cast made by the summoner during the dream will cause carby to appear and randomly boop a player with the buff refreshing their shield (higher chance to lower hp players). So in this case I say transcend because it goes into the next egi phase (duration lasts long enough that it lasts for two steps, the current and next). You can only have one active, though you could overwrite it (wasting some duration as a consequence). Now each egi (including carby, I guess lol) would have a unique stratagem. Basically adding an affix to all of your actions, this could have absolutely profound impact on your choices especially if you might think it transcends into the demi phase. So you might combine garuda stratagem with phoenix, ifrit with titan, etc. Keeping them more similar might make balance easier but certainly more different would allow for a huge depth of play, though at a higher variety (like ifrit phoenix is quite different than titan phoenix) then how the skill is activated becomes far more important (a simple use and cooldown would make poor mistakes or sudden changes in the playfield far more punishing and certainly make the job not easy to master lol). As an example if you had that carby heal effect on the high ogcd titan phase you'd get different value than if you had it on ifrit phase.

Finally a minor gripe (minor, especially in context to other people's feelings expressed in the thread):

This is just more of an aside of me thinking "poor carby" because it looks like he just kind of lives to be unsummed lol, so it might be a thought to have carby always be out but help you in summoning and do some other things. Like if you summon ifrit the gem on his head goes red, and ifrit appears and does his one off like we see. Maybe sic gives you a slight boost to your DPS as they do their own thing (sort of pre-calculated output of damage, so there is no ghosting issues, the animations of attack actions just being for player sanity lol) and if you put them on guard they'd do things like occasionally heal you or recover some of your mp. Or maybe just making it so they look like they're morphing into your other summons rather than constantly dying (/being unsummoned). It's not important really but it just makes me feel bad for him lol. At a certain point I feel like maybe he can be out if I want him out as being quirk of being a summoner (your choice to have an extra controllable minion essentially), but otherwise he'd not be out and therefore never gets desummoned at each step and will only show up when I use carby spells like in a classic FF setting (using radiant / shield skills would cause carby to appear cast the effect and vanish, if carby is already out per the quirk of being a summoner then it of course uses that instead). Unimportant, just me pitying carby (but that doesn't mean I dislike the new visual system, especially once you hit level 90 as you can see the job hits a whole level of "woah").

I'm leveling Paladin first because it's my OG bae, but I will be, and am looking forward to, leveling Summoner up and I hope we will all get to enjoy the class together.

Just a recap / TLR for transparency, I like this new version and I like the cut down on skills via morphs, I think level 86 is going to provide a lot of gameplay value some people are wanting so much so SE might have value bringing a weaker / lite variant earlier, carby seems a bit lost, physick I wish got the morph treatment, suggested a few ideas for those wanting more stuff (but I think astral flow at 86 might be enough, if not I'm a bit partial to the proc idea as it is a mechanic I already like on bard / red mage). Suggestions are not made out of dissatisfaction (minus perhaps physick lol), I am looking forward to getting more into the job.

[Rin_Kuroi]

They were not fun to play.

Now they are.

[seraf]

There was also no reason for them to see the convolution and decide to take an axe to the whole thing and make it probably the simplest job in the game.

This is why Summoner will always be a hot mess and debated because literally everyone that plays it wants it to be something different. It's either never Summoner enough or it's too hard to play or it's too easy to play or it was the best in 2.0 and then ruined or whatever else.

[JosephDirt]

I agree , disappointed with new summoner. I remeber another mmo that started simplifying jobs, its not around anymore.

[Sebazy]

Like more than half of the opener, the busiest part of your rotation, is just pressing 1 (ruin). The job practically plays itself, with virtually zero room for optimization. There is virtually no fail state either. It's also basically a one-hotbar job.

People have been complaining about healers being this way for years. I routinely get to press 1 200+ times in a single fight.

Maybe now people will realise how unacceptable this kind of gameplay is in a modern theme park MMO.

[seraf]

If you're only pressing 1 button you aren't even playing the Job properly. Not sure why people are even making this complaint.

[PartyBarn]

You guys are crazy. Summoner is way better now. Anyone who keeps saying "its only 1 button" is spouting pure hyperbole. It's a fraction of a fraction of its old level of complexity...which is the point. The old summoner was simply too complex for most players (and doubly so if you tried to play it on console/with a controller).

[NyteKitsune]

As having tried out the changes to SMN, the OP is welcome to their opinion, but its not bad, actually I like it, and if you're only using Ruin III you're playing it wrong, Most of your DPS is now coming from your summons, not Ruin 3.

As with any change people will complain, they won't take the time to read spell description, heck, most people won't read a sign on a door, why would they read something in a game? They won't re-organize their action bars, instead they will come here and complain to see how we respond

[Skiros]

As having tried out the changes to SMN, the OP is welcome to their opinion, but its not bad, actually I like it, and if you're only using Ruin III you're playing it wrong, Most of your DPS is now coming from your summons, not Ruin 3.

As with any change people will complain, they won't take the time to read spell description, heck, most people won't read a sign on a door, why would they read something in a game? They won't re-organize their action bars, instead they will come here and complain to see how we respond

Has anyone said you're only using Ruin III? You're primarily pressing the Ruin **button** in the opener and the Gemshine **button** thereafter.