Endwalker Main Scenario Commentary & Feedback

[EdwinLi]

I don’t really understand this.

I don’t see how Hydaelyn is really deemed as good? The story tries its damndest to make it seem that way yes, but given everything we are told and shown, she seems pretty oof to me. Sundered the world, didn’t say anything to anyone, kept secrets told lies etc. Her/Venat could’ve avoided this entire mess and instead chose to keep secrets because what? People needed to learn about suffering? Give me a break lol.

It a bit more complicated than that....

It was not about learning about suffering but to not run away from it. To face suffering and defeat the experience of suffering by creating hope.

The old world ruled by Amauret was built on the concept that they ran away from suffering instead of facing it by erasing anything they deemed unnecessary from existence.

They never valued the life of other beings because for them they can bring suffering to their "perfect" world. So those beings are erased because they are deemed "flawed".

A side quest in Elpis mentions this and it gives a bit into the mindset of people in Amauret. They basically erased anything they deemed flawed and things that can cause suffering is among them. Being "perfect" was their ideal life to a point most mock the concept of mating to have offsprings carry genes from both parents (which means Amauret's people method of creating children is different) simply because why bother with that when they can create the perfect genetic children to remove the risk of genetic defects.

When the final days came and they could not "erase" the source of their own suffering they became consumed by it. They did not try to defeat the suffering they inflicted on themselves but tried to run away to a point they were willing to create a society that depends on allowing other life to suffer so they don't have to suffer.


As for Venat choosing to lie, it is most likely to prevent events of the future from changing so that this WoL will live. She knew everything that will happen in the future due to not losing her memories and knows the only hope to defeat the Final Days is the WoL that she met on that day in Elpis. However, she did not know when the WoL will be born and when is that moment in his/her time frame. So she waited and guarded the secret of WoL being from the future to prevent those who serving Zodiark from attempting to endanger his/her life before that day happened.

[PangTong]

On Hydaelyn and time travel

IMO Elpis would have been perfect if they had just kept it purely as an alternate timeline.

There's nothing essential in the plot that requires it to be a closed loop/converged timeline with maybe the sole exception of learning where Meteion is, and I can't imagine that would have been too hard to come up with something less iffy than timeline shenanigans considering how much contrived fantasy fluff is in the story already.

Loops just make things so messy, especially since we can go back and continue to muck around in Elpis (and will do so even more in Pandemonium apparently). An alt timeline would have made our own Hydaelyn's actions a lot less ambiguous (since we could assume she was ignorant of Meteion) and left us with the hope that the Elpis visit timeline could avert tragedy, even if we never get to see it.

The thing that really weirds me out is that when we meet Hydaelyn face to face, she seems to not realize that it was us in Elpis back then until we bring it up, and then she says "now the timelines are converged" or something. But how could she NOT know it was us all along? Everything in our own timeline is a result of the events of our time in Elpis. She even makes reference to the "promise from another age" when we speak to her on the ship! The whole reason she becomes Hydaelyn is because she learns that mankind needs to find a way to fight against despair, right? Even stuff liker her tracking spell on Meteion exists in our time, or are they saying that even THAT is something that was "converged"?

It just straight up doesn't make sense for her to not know, but if she DOES, even putting aside her questionable actions during the Final Days, why does she never think to tell anyone, ever, even us, about Meteion/Dynamis? She couldn't clue in the Sharlayans in their 270-something years of communications? Why did she seem surprised to learn it was us she met in Elpis?

[Loggos]

She couldn't clue in the Sharlayans in their 270-something years of communications?

Yes, this surprised me, too.

The Sharlayans were able to build a high-class spaceship on their own (even though the Allagans were the last known society capable of space travel iirc) and then they perfected it with the help of the Loporrits and the integration of Allagan components (such as the special ore).
Interestingly enough, that one lalafell engineer already seemed to have a good understanding on how to integrate the Allagan ore into the spaceship without the Loporrits. But the knowledge of the latter helped to refine various aspects of the ship.
In addition, the concept of dynamis was already known to some parts of the world in the shape of akasha and the alchemists/scientists in Radz-at-Han seemed to be incredibly capable.
So bringing them, the Sharlayans and the Loporrits together could have resulted in some meaningful dynamis/akasha research, esp. considering that at least in the new/looped timeline she has the nagivation crystal.

And instead of telling the Loporrits to stay on the moon, Hydaelin could also have instructed them to use their incredible intelligence to work with the Sharlayans and the Radz-at-Han scientists on potential alternative solutions - or even defense mechanisms against/cures for dynamis' influence (whether these would have worked is another question - but there could have been an attempt at least).

Our actual solution was quite "planning efficient" after all. We used the spaceship, which originally had a different purpose, with the Loporrits' propulsion/drive system from the moon (is that the right word in English?) to get to the edge of space. Changing the build of the ship happened really quickly.
So they could have crafted one technical solution and concived of and planned for potential different ways of using it.

[EdwinLi]

Truth about Hydaelyn and her burden.

In the end Venat really was the strongest of Azem's friends.

When everything fell apart and the world burned, she did not sunder the world because she wanted to believe there was maybe one small light of hope that the world can still be saved. She knew everything that was about to happen since she did not have her memories erased.

When she saw that everyone has given up in the world and that the survivors were trying to create a Utopia that will only be a Utopia for them and all other life will suffer for their paradise, she made the hard choice to sunder the world. There was no grand battle between Hydaelyn versus Zodiark as the Asicans believe. It was just one single strike by Venat and she could have done this anytime she wanted but choose not to due to wanting to find one small hope to save her world.

Even after all that she continued forward knowing the amount of despair that will happen throughout the centuries as she waited for this one version of Azem that she met on that day in Elpis. It reached a point even she was completely consumed by despair but she still continued forward hoping to meet WoL.

In the end her efforts are rewarded and she leaves this world in peace and as the last friend of Azem to part ways as well.

The end credit image of friends.

This probably broke me the most because we see the friends WoL had as Azem walking away from him as they depart to the after life. Venat, Emet, Hermes (most likely meeting Azem once he became Fendaniel changed his views on life to value it), and Hydthlodaeus.

At the sametime we see WoL new friends he/she gained in this life, being the scions, passing them by walking towards WoL representing that despite WoL has lost his old friends due to this journey, he/she has gained new ones that are just as valued.

The part when we can even see Venat look back at WoL and his/her new friends while leaving with Emet, Hermes, and Hydthlodaeus shows her truely saying goodbye to her long time friend Azem and happy he/she will be well in his/her new life.

[MirronTulaxia]

I don’t really understand this.

I don’t see how Hydaelyn is really deemed as good? The story tries its damndest to make it seem that way yes, but given everything we are told and shown, she seems pretty oof to me. Sundered the world, didn’t say anything to anyone, kept secrets told lies etc. Her/Venat could’ve avoided this entire mess and instead chose to keep secrets because what? People needed to learn about suffering? Give me a break lol.

Because frankly I don’t see any other option except what she did.

Per Emet-Selch the Ancients way of solving things wouldn’t have led them to Meteion. We can say he’s wrong on that matter certainly, but I would buy it. We know, roughly, what would happen if they tried to have the Convocation get involved and figure things out to get a third path other than how the Ascians originally did things and the Hydaelyn path. And yes, people did need to learn suffering, that’s… kind of an important part of combating Meteion. Not denying it, not avoiding it, accepting it and moving on still. Which the Ancients couldn’t do. It’s pointed out that Hermes is an anomaly in the Ancient world for turning the Elpis flower purple, so it seems pretty alien to most of them. Maybe for the day to day people it wasn’t, but honestly I get the feeling most of the place was just frankly pretty idyllic.

[Illicium]

Thoughts on time travel related shenanigans

The whole time loop aspect of the story just feels really jarring to me as it just seems to go out of it's way to break the story's own rules in regards to time travel in ways which are just unnecessary. Sure you could say that this is how it's meant to play out, we always went back in time, told Venat about the final days and Zodiark and her role in summoning Hydaelyn but by their own rules set out in Shadowbringers that cannot be the case.

We're supposed to be dead.

The entire catalyst for the Shadowbringers story is that the Garlean Empire brought about the 8th calamity which resulted in our death. This then lead descendants of Cid and the Ironworks guys to find a way to change the past resulting in G'raha being woken up and sent to the first to stop the flood of light. This then results in a new timeline being created where the 8th calamity didn't happen allowing us to survive. If this new timeline hadn't been created we would not have been able to travel back in time to Elpis to meet Venat and tell her everything that happens as we would be dead. Doesn't this then just result in a Paradox? We're only able to find Meteion in the end because Venat tagged her with that tracking crystal, but if we weren't there Venat wouldn't have been there either as the only reason she gets involved is because we tell her our story. By the stories own logic, this should have resulted in a new timeline, but didn't. Instead, it's set up as a time loop and we were always there, but we can't have been as in the original timeline as well... we were dead and had no means to travel back in time besides.

The only possible logical explanation that I can come up with is that by us telling Hydaelyn that we met her in Elpis somehow blended these two timelines together but that just seems so needlessly messy.

[KageTokage]

Thoughts on time travel related shenanigans

The whole time loop aspect of the story just feels really jarring to me as it just seems to go out of it's way to break the story's own rules in regards to time travel in ways which are just necessary. Sure you could say that this is how it's meant to play out, we always went back in time, told Venat about the final days and Zodiark and her role in summoning Hydaelyn but by their own rules set out in Shadowbringers that cannot be the case.

We're supposed to be dead.

The entire catalyst for the Shadowbringers story is that the Garlean Empire brought about the 8th calamity which resulted in our death. This then lead descendants of Cid and the Ironworks guys to find a way to change the past resulting in G'raha being woken up and sent to the first to stop the flood of light. This then results in a new timeline being created where the 8th calamity didn't happen allowing us to survive. If this new timeline hadn't been created we would not have been able to travel back in time to Elpis to meet Venat and tell her everything that happens as we would be dead. Doesn't this then just result in a Paradox? We're only able to find Meteion in the end because Venat tagged her with that tracking crystal, but if we weren't there Venat wouldn't have been there either as the only reason she gets involved is because we tell her our story. By the stories own logic, this should have resulted in a new timeline, but didn't. Instead, it's set up as a time loop and we were always there, but we can't have been as in the original timeline as well... we were dead and had no means to travel back in time besides.

The only possible logical explanation that I can come up with is that by us telling Hydaelyn that we met her in Elpis somehow blended these two timelines together but that just seems so needlessly messy.

G'raha's continued existence after averting the events that caused the eighth Umbral calamity suggested that it did create an alternate timeline and was later confirmed with one of the Tales from Shadows side stories.

At this point I'm mostly curious how Pandemonium is going to play into things given that against all my expectations it also seems to take place in the past.

[Cleretic]

Thoughts on time travel related shenanigans

The whole time loop aspect of the story just feels really jarring to me as it just seems to go out of it's way to break the story's own rules in regards to time travel in ways which are just necessary. Sure you could say that this is how it's meant to play out, we always went back in time, told Venat about the final days and Zodiark and her role in summoning Hydaelyn but by their own rules set out in Shadowbringers that cannot be the case.

We're supposed to be dead.

The entire catalyst for the Shadowbringers story is that the Garlean Empire brought about the 8th calamity which resulted in our death. This then lead descendants of Cid and the Ironworks guys to find a way to change the past resulting in G'raha being woken up and sent to the first to stop the flood of light. This then results in a new timeline being created where the 8th calamity didn't happen allowing us to survive. If this new timeline hadn't been created we would not have been able to travel back in time to Elpis to meet Venat and tell her everything that happens as we would be dead. Doesn't this then just result in a Paradox? We're only able to find Meteion in the end because Venat tagged her with that tracking crystal, but if we weren't there Venat wouldn't have been there either as the only reason she gets involved is because we tell her our story. By the stories own logic, this should have resulted in a new timeline, but didn't. Instead, it's set up as a time loop and we were always there, but we can't have been as in the original timeline as well... we were dead and had no means to travel back in time besides.

The only possible logical explanation that I can come up with is that by us telling Hydaelyn that we met her in Elpis somehow blended these two timelines together but that just seems so needlessly messy.

I've got a couple angles on this one that might get us in the right place.

1. Our appearance ultimately didn't change a whole lot of Venat's plan. She was always going to do pretty much all of those components whether or not we were there, still responding in the same way to all the same events, so a theoretical WoL-less timeline still played out in, broadly, exactly the same way. Therefore, things don't break.

2. Similar to how Alexander's time loop had Quickthinx's time loop as a smaller component, the Elpis time loop already required the Exarch time loop as a component, and so the Exarch time loop was always a necessary element. Essentially, Shadowbringers was causally required to happen.

3. The story works on Bill and Ted rules, and so all time travel has, ultimately, already happened; there is no 'original' time loop, no version of events where the WoL wasn't in Elpis that day. This is actually consistent with how the Alexander storyline plays out, Alexander also uses Bill and Ted rules.

Personally I think #3 is most plausible.

[Rannie]

I'm curious about a certain elephant in the room and if it's already been touched sorry...

With Venat pretty much teaching us how to use the view past portion of the echo, will we be able to "use it more freely" in terms of Storyline and such unlike before

[shao32]

Im gonna be that guy, despite i really enjoy the main points of the story from the begining to the end i have some serious issues on different parts:

Im gonna be honest, the final days had a brilliant representation, all the thavnair has been so good but... and here comes the downside, i have 2 big problems with the whole event, first one is i don't like how after the Garlemald event there is no more scenes about it like at all, it's like it just affected those 2 zones and that's it, for a world wide event that treat the future of the star was dissapoining.
The second one is all the hints about an ishgard and other places would have an FD outbreak has been for nothing and i think they just portrayed the whole doomsday event really poorly after Garlemald with all the non-stop Sharlayan happy reunion and the power of friendship scenes ruining what could has been an epic final quest to save the star while our allies suffer and do what they can to hold the line, i mean they could have done the happy reunions and epic colaborations while they dealt with the horrors of the FD so is really dissapointing everyone have just being there staring at the sky while we did all the work for them.

I think they did a mistake by putting the Zodiark story and the Final days + Ending on the release patch, to much to tell without many space to recreate about the biggest selling points of the expansion, not only the Garlemald capital invasion felt rushed and to convenient due they have to squeeze that part of the story apart im dissapointed that anima has been just a dungeon boss.
As i mention before despite brilliant there was little scenes about the FD i belive they should have just cut after zodiark plot twist and the next patches should have been entirely about the FD including events and new dungeons covering diferent places like Ishgard against the horrors or Gridania or Doma/Kugane showing all the missing characters im going to address in the next point, and the new trials could have been covering diferent summons and horrors too to end with Hydaelyn and Meteion, hell they could have add the last zone mid expansion as a surprise breaking a bit the monotomy of the scheludes patches we are use to.

The last thing i just didn't like is how several characters has been totally absent, Hien, Yugiri, Fordola, Raubahn, Gaius, yeah they tried to justify Gaius at first but it doesn't make sense he didn't appear at all after certain point.

In resume the general main plots of the story has been nice and well done, but those points has let me down and despite it doesn't ruin complety the story it make it the Final days a forgettable event, i just expect way more from the doomsday event that treated the star and i didn't mention the so obviously fake deaths, even Y'sthola didn't try to make it fake anymore and she just straight told us we can summon all again like yeah sure the same stuff of always.
If i have something to say is please never compress the story like that in a expansion initial patch again, specially if someday they cover something as big as the events of Endwalker.