Endwalker Main Scenario Commentary & Feedback

[vormela]

I’ve read through the thread and wonder if some of us have been playing the same game this whole time.

I started playing the game in around April or May and have felt this way about the entire lore forum. I thought it was just me not having the decade-long experience and familiarity. Or I am crazy, which is usually the correct answer.

In other places online, there are specific groups that tend to have more to talk about than "this zone was very slow, retcon, aether blade, etc." A lot of it is fanfic community and people who write.

Like, if you thought Labyrinthos was slow then maybe you weren't paying attention to the quests.

The quest where we have to find 8 distraught high-security-clearance scientists to comfort with loporrits, which are basically Venat's comfort toys for people in senior living facilities... I know the medium limits that quest a lot, but I felt like they were making a statement about what it means to live. People need companionship and someone to say, "Hey, are you okay?" And more often than in instances where they need CPR! Everyday anxieties and insecurities about whether we did everything we could. Existential dread that can come with being a scientist in a field faced with the end of civilization and asking you to fix an impossible problem (climate scientists, anyone who deals in environmental engineering, etc.... basically anyone in earth sciences, health, biology).

The things that give people the "boost" to make all this possible in FFXIV are magical in some kind of way -- whether it is moogles, flying pigs, dragons, loporrits and their technology...but in life we have to decide for ourselves what that magic spark is. The magic can even make a difference in these everyday situations that don't seem critical (the quest I mentioned was part of an instanced zone and the music that plays is like "I'm on a mission to save the world" music).

With Endwalker specifically, the story had to cover so much ground that they were stuck with uniting the bits thematically. And the themes of this game are very deep, personal, and meaningful themes.

What does it mean to live? What does it take to survive? Why do we need to fight? Is there a reason/answer? The collapse of civilizations. Despair.

I think geeking out about lore of stories naturally tries to avoid these ideas to get down to some kind of answer, and that Endwalker's STORY is saying, "You need to find your own answer within." This naturally feels at odds with the "facts" and how they change over the course of how the story is told (I admit, some of the facts still bother me--I am at the last trial).

However, I think there is a balance we can achieve here between this type of take and the lore details (which is just as, if not more important--don't get me wrong!!). There is no "story" forum. I have checked.

[Rannie]

How can I put my thoughts on it... How dare Ishikawa and Yoshi P do that to me... I've NEVER fully cried during an expansion. Teared up a bit maybe, but flat out cried... not once, not twice, but FOUR (or five) TIMES!? Ye, gods was that an emotional roller coaster ride. I'm just glad my father was asleep or at work during most of this or he'd be looking at me all weird for the crying. shhhhiiii.....

I think i'm going to go into a corner and cry again

Edit: Before I do that (cause adulting) just one question in the last Area by the time we start going to the final boss, did anyone else get the 80's movie music vibe like I did with the zone music? (Can't wait to buy the album btw).

[Cleretic]

Edit: Before I do that (cause adulting) just one question in the last Area by the time we start going to the final boss, did anyone else get the 80's movie music vibe like I did with the zone music? (Can't wait to buy the album btw).

Yeah, final zone goes through three different themes based on when in the MSQ you're at.

The only disappointing thing is that once you're done, it's just always playing Footfalls. I like Footfalls, but I preferred the second theme for traveling around.

[Rannie]

Yeah, final zone goes through three different themes based on when in the MSQ you're at.

The only disappointing thing is that once you're done, it's just always playing Footfalls. I like Footfalls, but I preferred the second theme for traveling around.

O.o when I go back there it's still playing Close in the Distance .... even after opening a dungeon... if i've confused anyone I mean the final zone area

Ultima Thule

[Cleretic]

O.o when I go back there it's still playing Close in the Distance .... even after opening a dungeon... if i've confused anyone I mean the final zone area

Ultima Thule

Oh, I thought that was Footfalls. Yeah, it only plays that after completing the MSQ.

[Cleretic]

Personally, my theory about why people thought the story would take that turn actually starts outside of the game rather than inside of it.

JRPGs are branded with that 'team up with your friends and kill God' cliche for a reason; it really does happen A LOT. I assume it's because in a game with a grand setting that nonetheless primarily provides violence as a means of interaction, people started wanting to enact violence against the biggest thing in the setting, which tended to be 'the analog for God'. Then eventually developers started indulging that, and things snowballed.

I don't think, deep down, people actually wanted to fight Hydaelyn because they thought she was evil; I think people expected to fight her, because at this point in the genre that's just the done thing, and were looking for a justification. Then Shadowbringers rolls around with a theme of 'light is not always good and sometimes has to be fought', and a pretty genocidal sadboy to say bad things about her, and bam, suddenly the justification has crystallized: that we'll fight Hydaelyn because she's evil. The fact we'll fight her was never really the part in question, it was just a matter of finding the path they had to backtrack down to explain why.

I know I expected we'd throw down with Hydaelyn, I just never bought into the 'because she's bad' explanation, and landed on something closer to what actually happened, that we'd have to fight her as part of some kind of rueful challenge that we'd ultimately feel sad about.

[MirronTulaxia]

Personally, my theory about why people thought the story would take that turn actually starts outside of the game rather than inside of it.

JRPGs are branded with that 'team up with your friends and kill God' cliche for a reason; it really does happen A LOT. I assume it's because in a game with a grand setting that nonetheless primarily provides violence as a means of interaction, people started wanting to enact violence against the biggest thing in the setting, which tended to be 'the analog for God'. Then eventually developers started indulging that, and things snowballed.

I don't think, deep down, people actually wanted to fight Hydaelyn because they thought she was evil; I think people expected to fight her, because at this point in the genre that's just the done thing, and were looking for a justification. Then Shadowbringers rolls around with a theme of 'light is not always good and sometimes has to be fought', and a pretty genocidal sadboy to say bad things about her, and bam, suddenly the justification has crystallized: that we'll fight Hydaelyn because she's evil. The fact we'll fight her was never really the part in question, it was just a matter of finding the path they had to backtrack down to explain why.

I know I expected we'd throw down with Hydaelyn, I just never bought into the 'because she's bad' explanation, and landed on something closer to what actually happened, that we'd have to fight her as part of some kind of rueful challenge that we'd ultimately feel sad about.

Yeah, I didn't expect that we would have to

kill god. And honestly I think far more people were reaching for it rather than just expecting it. Lots of people kept trying to find justifications for how Hydaelyn was really evil, we were really tempered, the Ascians were right, on and on. I don't mind that we fought her, and it was fitting, though I think that is more due to the fact it fits the way they've done the game so far, I could easily conceive of a version of the story where Hydaelyn just accepts us for all she has seen us do. I'm really glad though that they managed to make Hydaelyn good until the end, would have ended XIV badly if they hadn't.

[QT_Melon]

Personally, my theory about why people thought the story would take that turn actually starts outside of the game rather than inside of it.

JRPGs are branded with that 'team up with your friends and kill God' cliche for a reason; it really does happen A LOT. I assume it's because in a game with a grand setting that nonetheless primarily provides violence as a means of interaction, people started wanting to enact violence against the biggest thing in the setting, which tended to be 'the analog for God'. Then eventually developers started indulging that, and things snowballed.

I don't think, deep down, people actually wanted to fight Hydaelyn because they thought she was evil; I think people expected to fight her, because at this point in the genre that's just the done thing, and were looking for a justification. Then Shadowbringers rolls around with a theme of 'light is not always good and sometimes has to be fought', and a pretty genocidal sadboy to say bad things about her, and bam, suddenly the justification has crystallized: that we'll fight Hydaelyn because she's evil. The fact we'll fight her was never really the part in question, it was just a matter of finding the path they had to backtrack down to explain why.

I know I expected we'd throw down with Hydaelyn, I just never bought into the 'because she's bad' explanation, and landed on something closer to what actually happened, that we'd have to fight her as part of some kind of rueful challenge that we'd ultimately feel sad about.

Hmm sorta...

It's not JUST the nature of JRPG and maybe the fact we don't like that a certain Fairy from the same company in another game lies to us.

This is also from the standpoint of the writing problem. This was NOT the original direction of the entire storyline. So they went back to make it work - with most parts being a success. However, certain aspects that were explained away - were heavy handed in trying a bit too hard to make it "good" in terms of good vs evil.


Personally I feel parts with Hydaelyn were a bit too forced/planned to "Mary Sueism" where certain other plot points could have been stressed. This why in many of my posts I say I like Venat, hate Hydaelyn. I feel they were too heavy handed here. I would have honestly enjoyed being misguided about her of possibly being evil if it (being the "strong independent, summon/primal that forethought about everything") was dialed back a bit. But again, I get it they're trying to write in the tying threads...just the methods I question in portraying this - not so much the overall intent.

Some have pointed out the Will of Zodiark. This is a plot point that should have been more hammered in, than the montage. The montage is a time saver for sure, but I feel that direction in terms of story telling was a misstep. But thinking over it, I don't think I have an easy answer to help that wouldn't introduce more pacing problems story wise. (Because I felt like the last part of Sharlayan was something of a slog and could have been cut down just a bit - even if there were some real gems of scenes like Urianger that hit me hard in the feels.)

I felt that seeing Venat being our mentor with her own network of people more featured probably would have helped as well. She may have taken the brunt of the responsibility but like we WoL we have our network of people we acquired in game and would have been nice to see that relationship mirrored to who would be our mentor. - Maybe in Pandemonium or the Myths of the Twelve

I also HATE HATE HATE the "communication problem" trope with the aftermath of Emet, Hythlodaeus and Venat. So it's just already assumed that because Hermes waved his magic time memory eraser 2002 device, that we're put in a plot point that Venat would have never had a discussion (even if she did) and Emet would never investigate when he had LESS reason to investigate when we were around?

I feel more burned out by that trope than "the good was evil all along" "religion is bad" and other tropes because that spawns in way too many genre. So I was literally at that point thinking "really THIS kind of trope AGAIN??"

So yeah these days fandoms, want to be right. But I do like good attempts at subverting expectations - AND for the most part Shadowbringers AND Endwalker did that and that's why I overall enjoyed this final storyline but I'm not singing high praises for certain parts of it especially when it comes to Hydaelyn. But who knows, with the 24 man raid and Pandemonium (which is very likely as Azem to be our first meeting with Elidibus) those issues will be fleshed out in "after story"

[KizuyaKatogami]

That's not true.

Minfillia didn't really die till near the end of Shadowbringers. Even when they flashback to her end its the scene where she talks to Ryne before passing on. Her presence is an absolutely massive part of ShB

And frankly while it was still technically a HW patch, the HW plotline was done by the time

Papalymo died, his death is the starting point of Stormblood far more then it is anything HW.

I disagree on this.

Minfilia was basically dead after ARR. All she was after that really was Hydaelyn’s meat puppet. As for Papalymo it really was still the HW patches, so it was still HW. The fact we haven’t had a major protagonist character death like that is sad and just seems like the writers are trying to cater to the community which seems like they can’t handle or cope with fictional death. In shadowbringers we fight two almost god-like beings and do so with 0 consequences. Despite the scions being on a ticking time bomb nothing ever comes from that, they’re perfectly fine. And now in Endwalker, the apocalypse that originally destroyed the planet that not even the godlike ancients could escape from, somehow the scions do so perfectly fine with 0 consequences or death. It’s honestly ridiculous, especially when you realize just how small of a presence some characters had. Like what exactly did Yshtola do this expansion of note?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Yeah, I didn't expect that we would have to

kill god. And honestly I think far more people were reaching for it rather than just expecting it. Lots of people kept trying to find justifications for how Hydaelyn was really evil, we were really tempered, the Ascians were right, on and on. I don't mind that we fought her, and it was fitting, though I think that is more due to the fact it fits the way they've done the game so far, I could easily conceive of a version of the story where Hydaelyn just accepts us for all she has seen us do. I'm really glad though that they managed to make Hydaelyn good until the end, would have ended XIV badly if they hadn't.

I don’t really understand this.

I don’t see how Hydaelyn is really deemed as good? The story tries its damndest to make it seem that way yes, but given everything we are told and shown, she seems pretty oof to me. Sundered the world, didn’t say anything to anyone, kept secrets told lies etc. Her/Venat could’ve avoided this entire mess and instead chose to keep secrets because what? People needed to learn about suffering? Give me a break lol.