Endwalker Main Scenario Commentary & Feedback

[Iscah]

Re. inhabitants of the final zone

My other question is in regards to the status of the inhabitants of Ultima Thule after finishing 6.0: namely, are the inhabitants of UT now actually alive/living for real now?
Because I understood that the areas aren't the actual remnants of the original planets (i.e. stars) that the Meteia encountered in their journey, but rather are recreations of them. And I believe Y'shtola and/or Urianger compare the inhabitants to the shades of the Ancients in Emet-Selch's recreated Amaurot. So wouldn't that mean that like the Ancient shades, they weren't the actual original souls of the dead planets, right? But after Meteion is beat and she restores "life/hope" to the universe, did that turn the inhabitants of Ultima Thule into for-real alive/original souls denizens?

Because the way the game discusses them and the side-quests treat them (after beating 6.0), it appears like they are living beings with souls now. (and from what I understood Meteion collected the dead souls of the planets she had visited and sequestered them away in the dead sun, so that they wouldn't continue to be reincarnated/reborn into potential future new lives, right?)

Or were the inhabitants of UT always alive, & it was only the specific individuals that the Scions had to emotionally overcome in order to progress through the zone (the ones that turned into black birds) that weren't alive and were only recreated shades?

An explanation I've seen elsewhere that makes sense:

The inhabitants are initially recreated memories, as explained to us while we're exploring, but that changes when we summon Emet and Hyth and they work their magic to allow us to reclaim the other Scions' souls. This (according to the theory) flooded the whole zone with aether, replacing the dynamis that originally gave it form – so the Scions' aether is no longer needed to do the same job – and this seems to have affected the inhabitants as well. It has given them physical aether-based forms and they seem to have broken out of the frozen state they were trapped in.

On timelines:

The whole time shenanigan. G'raha's original timeline is now an oddity, cause if we caused a time loop to happen, then G'raha's future should have never happened in the first place, yet it needed to in order to save the first. Cause if we died in G'raha's timeline, then the time loop wouldn't have happened, and Venat might have never caused the sundering (unless she had already decided on it, even without meeting us).

What do you mean, I seem to have a pet subject...?

G'raha's timeline has always been an oddity because it contrasted with the Alexander plot before it, which indicates that time loops are the standard outcome of time travel shenanigans and G'raha's successful "breaking out" is inconsistent.

My own theory is that the split specifically happened because he altered the past in a way that could not be reconciled with his original future, so the timeline has to take a second course but the first one can't be shut down.

For everything else, the changes get absorbed into the single original timeline.

The "Elpis time loop" doesn't have anything to do with G'raha's time loop spiral besides that his actions paved the way for the timeline where the Elpis loop is completed.

You don't need one to happen "before" the other can be fulfilled. In the sort of objective whole-of-timeline view of everything that happened over time, they're just separate loops and swirls that link into each other.

We may feel like we "create" time as we live it, but as soon as it's possible to make contact with someone from another point in time, you have to accept that from another person's perspective your future has already happened even though you are in full control of your actions at all times.

On Zenos's fate:

We just…abandon his body to the edge of the universe. What does that mean for his soul? Did it endure once more due to his Resonant abilities, or was he somehow perma-killed? And if it’s the latter, does he get to return home to Etheirys’ aetherial sea for an opportunity to try again, or is he just drifting out there in the dark expanse? He got exactly what he wanted in the end, but the fate of his soul may be even unkinder than that of Amon’s, who wrought significantly more damage.

Emet and Hyth were successfully summoned out of Etheirys's Lifestream and talk as if they'll go back there once they dissipate, so presumably (if dead) Zenos would as well.

There's a line somewhere about souls returning to the Lifestream "or joining a larger flow"? Perhaps Etheirys is actually some kind of aetherial centre point for the entire universe and "Silvertear Lake as the source of all aether/magic" (I cant remember which) is not just for the planet itself.

Tower of Babil:

A thing I'd like to note about Barnabas, however: If you look at his forehead, you'll see that he has the Garlean Third Eye, meaning just like Inferno and Number #24 from Castrum Abania, he's another Hypertuned experiment.

Is he a Frankenstein's monster or a robot? Either way, any fully artificial creation of a human form by a Garlean (be it a statue or a child's drawing or a high-tech robotic abomination) is likely to have the third eye because that's what people are to them, in the same way that the statues on the Azim Steppe are horned Au Ra.

From general context it's likely that, if organic, Barnabas is a hypertuned – but the mere presence of a third eye isn't specific proof of that.

[Theozilla]

An explanation I've seen elsewhere that makes sense:

The inhabitants are initially recreated memories, as explained to us while we're exploring, but that changes when we summon Emet and Hyth and they work their magic to allow us to reclaim the other Scions' souls. This (according to the theory) flooded the whole zone with aether, replacing the dynamis that originally gave it form – so the Scions' aether is no longer needed to do the same job – and this seems to have affected the inhabitants as well. It has given them physical aether-based forms and they seem to have broken out of the frozen state they were trapped in.

So would that mean

the Ultima Thule denizens weren’t composed of souls prior to Emet and Hythlodaeus’ magick and/or Meteoin’s defeat and the dead sun spilling out the souls it had had trapped inside it?

What do you mean, I seem to have a pet subject...?

G'raha's timeline has always been an oddity because it contrasted with the Alexander plot before it, which indicates that time loops are the standard outcome of time travel shenanigans and G'raha's successful "breaking out" is inconsistent.

My own theory is that the split specifically happened because he altered the past in a way that could not be reconciled with his original future, so the timeline has to take a second course but the first one can't be shut down.

For everything else, the changes get absorbed into the single original timeline.

The "Elpis time loop" doesn't have anything to do with G'raha's time loop spiral besides that his actions paved the way for the timeline where the Elpis loop is completed.

You don't need one to happen "before" the other can be fulfilled. In the sort of objective whole-of-timeline view of everything that happened over time, they're just separate loops and swirls that link into each other.

We may feel like we "create" time as we live it, but as soon as it's possible to make contact with someone from another point in time, you have to accept that from another person's perspective your future has already happened even though you are in full control of your actions at all times.

Wouldn’t it just be simpler to just accept that Alexander and Endwalker causal loop time travel while G’raha Tia in ShadowBringers does multiverse-theory (a la Future Trunks in DBZ) time travel. And therefore just assume that Exarch!G’raha’s timeline had a slightly different history even before the 8th Umbral Calamity?

[EaraGrace]

So would that mean

the Ultima Thule denizens weren’t composed of souls prior to Emet and Hythlodaeus’ magick and/or Meteoin’s defeat and the dead sun spilling out the souls it had had trapped inside it?

Spoooodles

Endsinger mentions how the souls inside her writhe and rage so I would say that’s likely.

[Iscah]

Wouldn’t it just be simpler to just accept that Alexander and Endwalker causal loop time travel while G’raha Tia in ShadowBringers does multiverse-theory (a la Future Trunks in DBZ) time travel. And therefore just assume that Exarch!G’raha’s timeline had a slightly different history even before the 8th Umbral Calamity?

That is basically what I "accept" already, though? G'raha's actions bring about a multiverse-style splitting of timelines despite all other examples so far resulting in causal loops in a single timeline. (Though I am not familiar enough with DBZ to know how that timeline originated exactly.)

The key thing is, there was only one timeline until the events of Shadowbringers caused it to diverge into one path that leads to the Eighth Calamity and a second path that does not. The second path could not have formed if G'raha did not come back from the future of the first path, but now they are simply equal paths for history to take.

I feel like it's something that is actually quite simple but in a way that is hard to explain, especially if people have a fundamentally different concept of how time works.

[Theozilla]

That is basically what I "accept" already, though? G'raha's actions bring about a multiverse-style splitting of timelines despite all other examples so far resulting in causal loops in a single timeline. (Though I am not familiar enough with DBZ to know how that timeline originated exactly.)

The key thing is, there was only one timeline until the events of Shadowbringers caused it to diverge into one path that leads to the Eighth Calamity and a second path that does not. The second path could not have formed if G'raha did not come back from the future of the first path, but now they are simply equal paths for history to take.

I feel like it's something that is actually quite simple but in a way that is hard to explain, especially if people have a fundamentally different concept of how time works.

Oh well, I was under the impression that there was frustration that FFXIV has two different types of time travel existing within the same narrative.
Also Exarch!G’raha’s original timeline doesn’t just diverge from the new one (our main timeline) in regards to the future. Because of Endwalker, Exarch!G’raha’s timeline also has to have a slightly different past as well since it never had its WoL travel back in time to do a causal loop, because the WoL was dead (and the 8th Umbral Calamity occurred instead of the second Final Days occurring), so therefore the Hydaelyn of that timeline still sundered the original world even without having met the WoL in Elpis.

[Iscah]

Because of Endwalker, Exarch!G’raha’s timeline also has to have a slightly different past as well since it never had its WoL travel back in time to do a causal loop, because the WoL was dead

This is where things get really wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey but very simple if you have the right picture in mind.

Our "other self" from the Eighth Calamity timeline does not need to travel back in time at all, and in fact would confuse things for our side of the time divergence if they did. The time loop only happens on our side.

Although the starting point for our time travel trip is after the two timelines diverge, our destination is before the split. What we do there affects "the past of both timelines simultaneously" because they aren't separate things yet.

Therefore it is our presence in Elpis, and ours alone, that is experienced and remembered by the people there.

(Or to look at it another way, if our other self somehow did make it to Elpis prior to their untimely demise, they would be arriving in the same Elpis that we visited ourselves. There is no alternate version of those events.)

[EdwinLi]

This is where things get really wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey but very simple if you have the right picture in mind.

Our "other self" from the Eighth Calamity timeline does not need to travel back in time at all, and in fact would confuse things for our side of the time divergence if they did. The time loop only happens on our side.

Although the starting point for our time travel trip is after the two timelines diverge, our destination is before the split. What we do there affects "the past of both timelines simultaneously" because they aren't separate things yet.

Therefore it is our presence in Elpis, and ours alone, that is experienced and remembered by the people there.

(Or to look at it another way, if our other self somehow did make it to Elpis prior to their untimely demise, they would be arriving in the same Elpis that we visited ourselves. There is no alternate version of those events.)

In my opinion it is one of those "aboslute point" moments in both timelines but when it happens varies based on events that happened before that absolute point. Absolute points in time is the theory that is said to always happen no matter what a person does but when, how, why, and where it happens varies based on actions since a person will only be able to delay or accelorate the absolute point.

Both will have a version of WoL that appears on Elpis with the same appearance but which version of WoL appears is different.

In G'raha timeline, it is most likely a future version of WoL that is more complete because by then the Ascians have rejoined more shards at that point. It will be this version of WoL who confronts Emet, defeats him, and spark the events of the Final Days in this timeline.

In WoL's timeline, it is our WoL because G'raha actions in changing events of the timeline accelorated events to be sooner.

[Iscah]

In my opinion it is one of those "aboslute point" moments in both timelines but when it happens varies based on events that happened before that absolute point. Absolute points in time is the theory that is said to always happen no matter what a person does but when, how, why, and where it happens varies based on actions since a person will only be able to delay or accelorate the absolute point.

Both will have a version of WoL that appears on Elpis with the same appearance but which version of WoL appears is different.

In G'raha timeline, it is most likely a future version of WoL that is more complete because by then the Ascians have rejoined more shards at that point. It will be this version of WoL who confronts Emet, defeats him, and spark the events of the Final Days in this timeline.

In WoL's timeline, it is our WoL because G'raha actions in changing events of the timeline accelorated events to be sooner.

There are no multiple timelines involved in Elpis. Those events are located in time prior to the split between the "bad future" timeline and ours.

When we travel there, it's not "our Elpis" with a second copy left untouched for another WoL to visit. Everything that happens there forms the past of both timelines together, and our actions become part of the other timeline's history as well as ours.

I tried to map it out as a better explanation. This is still rough but I hope it makes sense.

The key thing to get your mind around is, from the perspective of our current timeline, our visit to Elpis occurred in our past – and from the perspective of someone in the bad timeline, our visit (ours specifically, not an alternate self's) is part of their timeline as well. There doesn't need to be a second alternate event.

[Theozilla]

This is where things get really wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey but very simple if you have the right picture in mind.

Our "other self" from the Eighth Calamity timeline does not need to travel back in time at all, and in fact would confuse things for our side of the time divergence if they did. The time loop only happens on our side.

Although the starting point for our time travel trip is after the two timelines diverge, our destination is before the split. What we do there affects "the past of both timelines simultaneously" because they aren't separate things yet.

Therefore it is our presence in Elpis, and ours alone, that is experienced and remembered by the people there.

(Or to look at it another way, if our other self somehow did make it to Elpis prior to their untimely demise, they would be arriving in the same Elpis that we visited ourselves. There is no alternate version of those events.)

I think that’s an over-complicated way of viewing multiverse-theory time travel. It’s far simpler to assume that the 8th Umbral Calamity timeline is now a separate parallel timeline to the main one, instead of a diverging one. That way allows for the 8th Umbral Calamity timeline to differ from the main universe timeline both past and present, since causal loops require both to work.