Sujet : Monk Positionals 6.0

Envoyé par Shurrikhan

A simple spitball:

Fluid Strikes (Trait) - Every third flank or rear attack you land from the correct position generates a charge of Fluid Strikes, which are consumed to cause your next would-be missed flank or rear attack to deal damage as if it hit from the correct position. You can hold up to three charges of Fluid Strikes.

Simple. Intuitive. Not invasive. Actually deals with random boss spins and tank shenanigans.

Thanks for explaining! I understand now; I've seen the idea of automated (old) RoE/TN as a reward for landing positionals shared before. I think it would definitely be preferable to what we have now, or have recently had, though I also think it'd have to be a lot more than a 3 charge cap to deal with all of the game's said shenanigans. I'd still prefer to have no positionals at all, but this kind of leniency would go a long way toward making me not irate with them if the charge cap were high enough.

Envoyé par Shurrikhan

Given that this version wouldn't count the positionals guaranteed by Fluid Strikes towards further Fluid Strikes generation, I wouldn't hate having 4 charges, but this would already allow for, in effect, 3 & 2/3s charges, since the progress towards the last would just be frozen until the 3rd charge is made open again. That's effectively 3 guaranteed in a row and only a single further success to guarantee yet another.

Honestly... it feels unlikely that we'd need more than ~6s (nearly 10s) at a time or at frequency greater than every ~18-26 seconds.

If a stack point, for instance, is forcing us out of positionals for that long, it's almost certainly just in the wrong place (it should, unless specifically prevented, be centered on the center of the boss's hitbox, allowing positionals even while helping to split the damage).

I think uptime strats and very coordinated groups usually don't force monks (before the changes) into a position where they might need more than the TN they have available to them, though it does happen with a select few fights iirc. Current monk would definitely not need more than 3 charges, but previous monk would. I had assumed that this leniency change was hand-in-hand with positionals being brought back, in which case I don't agree that 3 or 4 charges is enough.

However, I'm assuming coordinated groups in difficult endgame content for the sake of these examples. This doesn't solve all positional issues for all of the game's content and playing with random players. I'd personally rather not try to solve a problem for a job with only favorable scenarios taken into consideration, and in specific circumstances (Savage/Ultimate/Ex etc.) at that. The inherent volatility of positionals across content and groups is one of the reasons I'd really prefer to just see them go.

Envoyé par Miralyth

The inherent volatility of positionals across content and groups is one of the reasons I'd really prefer to just see them go.

Some Black Mages also complain about fights that force them to move (and healers complain that some black mages try to sit through damage and stress their resources more as a result). Should we then also remove 3/4th of all castbars from jobs that have them? Some Black Mages also complain about astral/umbral timers because they don't want to feel "punished" for making mistakes. Should we just remove those too?

That's what this argument ultimately boils down to. Should we remove things that actually challenge players who are seeking to put out the most DPS possible? Because at the end of the day, a good Monk not only was able to land their positionals consistently, they could manage their resources to account for times when a boss/encounter was going to make landing them difficult. A good black mage learns the fights, learns where and when they can greed, to slidecast, when they absolutely need to move. Good players strive to follow "the plan", true, but more importantly they understand what to do when the game deliberately throws wrenches into that plan. That's part of the skill. That's what makes learning fights, learning a job as a whole, actually interesting.

I feel like people want to be able to reach the "maximum" their jobs are capable of without putting in the effort required to get there.

Envoyé par IruruCece

Some Black Mages also complain about fights that force them to move (and healers complain that some black mages try to sit through damage and stress their resources more as a result). Should we then also remove 3/4th of all castbars from jobs that have them? Some Black Mages also complain about astral/umbral timers because they don't want to feel "punished" for making mistakes. Should we just remove those too?

That's what this argument ultimately boils down to. Should we remove things that actually challenge players who are seeking to put out the most DPS possible? Because at the end of the day, a good Monk not only was able to land their positionals consistently, they could manage their resources to account for times when a boss/encounter was going to make landing them difficult. A good black mage learns the fights, learns where and when they can greed, to slidecast, when they absolutely need to move. Good players strive to follow "the plan", true, but more importantly they understand what to do when the game deliberately throws wrenches into that plan. That's part of the skill. That's what makes learning fights, learning a job as a whole, actually interesting.

I feel like people want to be able to reach the "maximum" their jobs are capable of without putting in the effort required to get there.

I can't agree with the premise of your argument toward me. Your base counter-example uses cast bars, which are not volatile in the same situations that positionals are and therefore have a different feel to them. If you wanted to compare me liking positionals or not to a mechanic that is exactly the same and ask me about it, that would be fine. The base premise of my argument (a few posts back) is that I don't enjoy positionals, and their volatility is "one of the reasons."

Positionals have long since become near-automatic for me. I of course occasionally miss them through no one's fault but my own, I think everyone does some times, and that isn't what bothers me. My desire to see positionals go has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with being uninterested in them. I understand that other people find them difficult and enjoy that aspect of them, and I think positional difficulty would be a comparable argument to have with other mechanics, but that is not at all what I'm expressing here.

I feel like positions shouldn't really be a thing so much as combos opening up depending on position should be.
Having a 123 rotation where you have to move around just doesn't seem monk like as much as changing your next combo attack to take advantage of the position should.
As an example, if you can't get to the back to true strike, maybe there should be a flank attack that does similar, we'll call it dolphin kick for this example. Maybe true strike does more raw damage and would be preferred, but dolphin kick extends disciplined fist and gives movement speed? A less than ideal trade but an actual combo system would make for an interesting monk I think.
This would be less than ideal for button bloat though I admit and would probably require a confusing amount of switching buttons to work with the tab target combat.

Envoyé par Miralyth

I can't agree with the premise of your argument toward me. Your base counter-example uses cast bars, which are not volatile in the same situations that positionals are and therefore have a different feel to them. If you wanted to compare me liking positionals or not to a mechanic that is exactly the same and ask me about it, that would be fine. The base premise of my argument (a few posts back) is that I don't enjoy positionals, and their volatility is "one of the reasons."

Positionals have long since become near-automatic for me. I of course occasionally miss them through no one's fault but my own, I think everyone does some times, and that isn't what bothers me. My desire to see positionals go has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with being uninterested in them. I understand that other people find them difficult and enjoy that aspect of them, and I think positional difficulty would be a comparable argument to have with other mechanics, but that is not at all what I'm expressing here.

I'm kind of inclined to agree now after playing EW MNK, NIN and RPR for a bit. At first I missed the positionals because they were quite challenging when I was newer to the job and that made it pretty engaging. Now I'm doing them on autopilot even though they're not in the game anymore.

I think my problem with them was that they're only a potency boost. If they felt a bit more rewarding, ie rewarding chakra or filling a new, second gauge(I know that'd be more punishing but I don't care, gitgud), then I might enjoy it more. But at the moment I'm kind of getting more of a kick out of DPS jobs that have more resources to manage, and I think that's where I'm at with how I feel about MNK: Perfect Balance isn't a very engaging mechanic, and chakra is poorly implemented. 3 damage oGCDs are gone so I'm not having to manage those cooldowns/stocks anymore, either. So I'm probably gonna play a different job for now unless they ever change some of this stuff about MNK, because whoever's balancing and adjusting DRG, BLM, SAM, NIN seems to have way more of a clue what they're doing than MNK which feels like a sinking ship.

Envoyé par Navnav

Damn man, I think they made a HUGE mistake putting positionals in this game full stop. Especially 6 on one job. You'll got used to lazy class design and now beg for it, rather than asking for an actual engaging class.
Kinda sad tbh, both that square didn't put all the effort in, and that community just want them to be as lazy as uncreative as possible. Guess that is why mechanically this game is still one of the worst 'big' MMORPGS on the market, mechanically speaking only.

I mean, you can't have abilities pop off almost two seconds after you hit the button and actually sit there and tell me that this game has been coded well. It is amateur at best.

Do you ever have anything positive to say?