A lot of the main issues with SCH are not being addressed with Endwalker

[inhaledcorn]

<snip>

I love all of this, but I'm not sure about your suggestion with Dissipation. From what I understand on how Dissipation is supposed to work, it's supposed to be an emergency heal button. However, the extra Aetherflow and GCD boost do not synergize with SCH due to being more oGCD based and losing a large chunk of healing otherwise, not to mention it doesn't have the GCD heals to really take advantage of it (it's one AoE GCD heal has shields attached which means it can't really be spammed). Adding another Aetherflow button doesn't really address the cooldowns of Aetherflow skills, as well as Dissipation being used as a DPS increase instead of as a healing tool like the devs intend. Now, if it was something like a single Aetherflow stack or another button like Recitation that grants a free use of an Aetherflow skill, that would be better. Honestly, if they just scrapped Dissipation and put Rouse in at 60, I don't think anyone would complain.

Side note: I really wish SCH had a shieldless Succor without needing to use Emergency Tactics, and I would like Emergency Tactics to also increase the potency of the next Adlo/Succor as well as reducing the MP cost. As it is right now, Emergency Tactics doesn't change the essential heal granted by those skills.

[Silver-Strider]

I love all of this, but I'm not sure about your suggestion with Dissipation. From what I understand on how Dissipation is supposed to work, it's supposed to be an emergency heal button. However, the extra Aetherflow and GCD boost do not synergize with SCH due to being more oGCD based and losing a large chunk of healing otherwise, not to mention it doesn't have the GCD heals to really take advantage of it (it's one AoE GCD heal has shields attached which means it can't really be spammed). Adding another Aetherflow button doesn't really address the cooldowns of Aetherflow skills, as well as Dissipation being used as a DPS increase instead of as a healing tool like the devs intend. Now, if it was something like a single Aetherflow stack or another button like Recitation that grants a free use of an Aetherflow skill, that would be better. Honestly, if they just scrapped Dissipation and put Rouse in at 60, I don't think anyone would complain.

Side note: I really wish SCH had a shieldless Succor without needing to use Emergency Tactics, and I would like Emergency Tactics to also increase the potency of the next Adlo/Succor as well as reducing the MP cost. As it is right now, Emergency Tactics doesn't change the essential heal granted by those skills.

Like I said, it's not perfect. Dissipation is mainly used for DPS with a side effect of recovering MP via E.Drain (No longer applicable in EW), all I did was cut out the anti-synergy it had with SCH's current toolkit by no longer removing the fairy and getting rid of the Heal buff it provides and moved more healing towards the fairies. Would an extra charge of Aetherflow do anything really for SCH? Well, just some minor QoL improvements such as being able to build Fairy Gauge quicker, having your fairy out to help heal thru Living Dead, and being able to still get back MP that Dissipation will no longer grant in EW. Minor things but still helpful.

As for E-Tactics, I was debating adding the Healing buff from Dissipation to E-Tactics but decided against it. Not because E-Tactics doesn't need help but because E-Tactics in general has such a niche use that the skill is better left either being removed or reworked in a way that would help SCH more. I know I wouldn't be sad to see E-tactics replaced with Eye for an Eye for more synergy with the toolkit.

[Shurrikhan]

Like I said, it's not perfect. Dissipation is mainly used for DPS with a side effect of recovering MP via E.Drain (No longer applicable in EW), all I did was cut out the anti-synergy it had with SCH's current toolkit by no longer removing the fairy and getting rid of the Heal buff it provides.

At what point does that go from merely removing "anti-synergy" to removing choices, though?

Back when there was actually some bursty heal checks, I quite liked Dissipation specifically because it was a choice that allowed me to burst out some immediate throughput at cost to total/sustained or it rewarded use inside of raid windows when I knew I'd need little healing (and such was far from a constant condition) or just before forced downtime. It had, and still has (though less satisfyingly), gameplay.

:: Generally speaking, if we're making changes only because "healing gameplay's not really a thing anyways"... we've already seen what happens to the gameplay environment when we further constrict our toolkits to them: they merely trend all the deeper and more problematically.

[Grimoire-M]

A role-action that silences, pacifies, and greatly reduces damage dealt (as per Toad) would still remove WHM's AoE stun niche, since it'd already manage all that stun does -- just likely at a much greater duration.

I think it's fair to assume that Toad wouldn't be given to us in any AoE form without every crowd control action also getting the same treatment. If I were hedging on any of the current ones getting that treatment, it would be Sleep & Repose or Foot Graze, due to Sleep and Bind being cut off by damage.


As for the Dissipation discussion, I think the duration which it lasts needs to be cut down in order to dissuade people's issue with losing the fairy kit. 15s would be far too short, as then a single Lustrate offsets the Embrace right now and I do think Endwalker Embrace makes a difference. With the Endwalker changes in mind, 20-21s seems reasonable, given the primary benefit of the skill is the Aetherflow stacks it generates, and regardless of how you intend to use them, lowering the fairy downtime would communicate to players in the know that they're going to lose about the same healing they are now, while also easing off the sticking point that keeps newer players from trying to use it in the first place, even if it isn't a problem in practice.

[Silver-Strider]

At what point does that go from merely removing "anti-synergy" to removing choices, though?

Back when there was actually some bursty heal checks, I quite liked Dissipation specifically because it was a choice that allowed me to burst out some immediate throughput at cost to total/sustained or it rewarded use inside of raid windows when I knew I'd need little healing (and such was far from a constant condition) or just before forced downtime. It had, and still has (though less satisfyingly), gameplay.

:: Generally speaking, if we're making changes only because "healing gameplay's not really a thing anyways"... we've already seen what happens to the gameplay environment when we further constrict our toolkits to them: they merely trend all the deeper and more problematically.

I'm gonna be honest, I genuinely don't care about the little nuances of Dissipation because I'd rather have a job that isn't constantly at war with itself before worrying about how to incorporate cheap gimmicks into it, of which I can think of a million that are more interesting than E.drain aligning with Raid buffs as a more fitting reward for the effort.

[Shurrikhan]

of which I can think of a million that are more interesting

Like?

If the idea itself is to outright remove some of what little depth remains, then those alternatives ought to be at least very readily and vividly imaginable and that removal clearly a necessary step in bringing in those net positives.

I don't think Dissipation puts SCH "at war with itself" any more than any other choice of spender does. The fairy is, at the end of the day, a clunky HoT with exclusion windows that exist specifically because of Dissipation, and I see nothing wrong with a situational burst option by which to trade that HoT for immediate resource and added shield power (via Dis's healing mod) during any but the least opportune times. (And no, I don't think exclusion windows are a bad thing; they're largely what gives skills like Meikyo, Hypercharge, Perfect Balance, and Tri-Disaster their complexity.)

Lastly, before we disparage a skill for being "situational", let's note what's happened to those jobs, such as Monk, that have replaced their "situational" skills with those with minor but consistent gains that flow about as well as tarred chunks of rock. Replacements for situational "bloat" skills just to make their use more regular has only resulted in obligatory bloat, reduced choice and skill ceiling, and (even if merely correlatively) reduced fight complexity and/or diversity. Or, at best we get something altogether "new"... that in turn merely siphons away from what used to be more functional before that shiny "new" addition.

[inhaledcorn]

Like I said, it's not perfect. Dissipation is mainly used for DPS with a side effect of recovering MP via E.Drain (No longer applicable in EW), all I did was cut out the anti-synergy it had with SCH's current toolkit by no longer removing the fairy and getting rid of the Heal buff it provides and moved more healing towards the fairies. Would an extra charge of Aetherflow do anything really for SCH? Well, just some minor QoL improvements such as being able to build Fairy Gauge quicker, having your fairy out to help heal thru Living Dead, and being able to still get back MP that Dissipation will no longer grant in EW. Minor things but still helpful.

As for E-Tactics, I was debating adding the Healing buff from Dissipation to E-Tactics but decided against it. Not because E-Tactics doesn't need help but because E-Tactics in general has such a niche use that the skill is better left either being removed or reworked in a way that would help SCH more. I know I wouldn't be sad to see E-tactics replaced with Eye for an Eye for more synergy with the toolkit.

Don't remind me of the loss of E4E and Virus. I want them back. I don't care if they even go cross-role. I just want my babies.

[Silver-Strider]

Like?

If the idea itself is to outright remove some of what little depth remains, then those alternatives ought to be at least very readily and vividly imaginable and that removal clearly a necessary step in bringing in those net positives.

I don't think Dissipation puts SCH "at war with itself" any more than any other choice of spender does. The fairy is, at the end of the day, a clunky HoT with exclusion windows that exist specifically because of Dissipation, and I see nothing wrong with a situational burst option by which to trade that HoT for immediate resource and added shield power (via Dis's healing mod) during any but the least opportune times. (And no, I don't think exclusion windows are a bad thing; they're largely what gives skills like Meikyo, Hypercharge, Perfect Balance, and Tri-Disaster their complexity.)

Lastly, before we disparage a skill for being "situational", let's note what's happened to those jobs, such as Monk, that have replaced their "situational" skills with those with minor but consistent gains that flow about as well as tarred chunks of rock. Replacements for situational "bloat" skills just to make their use more regular has only resulted in obligatory bloat, reduced choice and skill ceiling, and (even if merely correlatively) reduced fight complexity and/or diversity. Or, at best we get something altogether "new"... that in turn merely siphons away from what used to be more functional before that shiny "new" addition.

Honestly, I'd give SCH a system similar to SMN's Ruin 4 mechanic with slightly more depth to it.
So, each time SCH uses a pet ability (Whispering Dawn, Fey Blessing/Consolation, Fey Covenant/Fey Illumination) you gain a stack of Ruminate, up to a max of 3. Ruminate would deal damage equal to our nuke spell and applies the Virus Status effect once a minute. Replace Dissipation with a new skill called Conversion Tactics that we can use to exchange excess Ruminate stacks for Aetherflow, which we will have extra simply due to the fact we spend Fairy abilities faster than we'd spend Ruminate stacks with a soft 1 minute CD on the skill, and just like that, we have a much more interesting mechanic that converts Ruin 2 into a utility spell for SCH, still allows the accumulation of Aetherflow and while it would miss out on being a part of the opener due to not being able to use it without Ruminate stacks, the DPS loss of that would easily be negated by allowing for more liberal usage of Conversion Tactics throughout a fight to gain more uses out of Aetherflow abilities, which in turn allows for Aetherpact to be used more as well, saving even more time for DPS gains to occur, not to mention lowering the strain on Healers by the return of the Virus status effect which would help to accomplish the same overall effect of the heal buff from Dissipation.

[Shurrikhan]

Honestly, I'd give SCH a system similar to SMN's Ruin 4 mechanic with slightly more depth to it.
So, each time SCH uses a pet ability (Whispering Dawn, Fey Blessing/Consolation, Fey Covenant/Fey Illumination) you gain a stack of Ruminate, up to a max of 3. Ruminate would deal damage equal to our nuke spell and applies the Virus Status effect once a minute. Replace Dissipation with a new skill called Conversion Tactics that we can use to exchange excess Ruminate stacks for Aetherflow, which we will have extra simply due to the fact we spend Fairy abilities faster than we'd spend Ruminate stacks with a soft 1 minute CD on the skill, and just like that, we have a much more interesting mechanic that converts Ruin 2 into a utility spell for SCH, still allows the accumulation of Aetherflow and while it would miss out on being a part of the opener due to not being able to use it without Ruminate stacks, the DPS loss of that would easily be negated by allowing for more liberal usage of Conversion Tactics throughout a fight to gain more uses out of Aetherflow abilities, which in turn allows for Aetherpact to be used more as well, saving even more time for DPS gains to occur, not to mention lowering the strain on Healers by the return of the Virus status effect which would help to accomplish the same overall effect of the heal buff from Dissipation.

Let me double-check my understanding:

• Whispering Dawn (120s CD), Fey Illumination (120s CD), and --more importantly-- Fey Blessing (10 gauge / 1 Aetherflow cast) now generate pseudo-R4s called Ruminates, which can be banked up to 3 times.
• I'm not sure what "applies the Virus Status effect once per minute" is supposed to mean. Is this to say it follows a unique diminishing return timer? If it can only effectively be used once per minute, despite averaging roughly twice that in opportunities afforded, it's not going to feel like an opportunity afforded and an opportunity spent so much as simply a passive with a minimum threshold to readiness. That will definitely feel "clunky" to some.
• (I'm not sure what defines "excess" Ruminate stacks. Is this any more than a single stack, in which case we can only refill 2 Aetherflow at a time via Conversion Tactics?)
• Now we add Conversion Tactics by which to replace our Ruminate (which are merely instant-cast Broils with a 10% magic damage down that is only applied once per minute for an unknown duration) stacks with Aetherflow once per minute, which ideally must be woven between Virus opportunities and points at which you have 2-3 Aetherflow slots open (depending on the above definition of "excess Ruminate stacks").
• Note: This causes a Fey Blessing (or rather, the Aetherflow cast that generated that 10 gauge) to refund itself once per minute, if the conversion limit isn't already capped by WD and FI within the CT period (which would only be the case if CT can really only covert 2 charges of Ruminate). On the other hand, if CT can covert 3 at a time OR we are in scenarios where we'd never need Fey Blessing, CT's CD becomes utterly irrelevant, because Ruminate already holds up to a nominal 3 minutes' worth of charge.

I don't think jumping through extra hoops here to optimize normal play, without any reason to vary one's expenditure based on the timing or healing requirements of the situation, etc., (and, indeed, if all this comes at cost to ED and/or Dissipation, at cost to the ability to thus vary one's play), is particularly "interesting". You say this getting instant-casts from pet skills that can then be kind of sort of coverted to Aetherflow affords "utility skill" casts, but... it's just more Aetherflow, now with an exploitable loop by which to get in one more Aetherflow cast per minute so long as we play rather rigidly. I get currency trade hoops enough just buying a tome-weapon. I'd much rather just have a functional Embrace, functional pet actions, and a decently balanced R2 and Energy Drain than do an extra layer of reload cycles per minute that more than likely would oblige otherwise wasteful casts.

[Silver-Strider]

Snip

• Whispering Dawn and Fey Blessing are both on a 60s CD.
• Fey Blessing will no longer use Fairy Gauge in EW.
• Virus was an old cross class ability that SCH/SMN used to have that would apply a damage down debuff to the target for 10s but made the target immune to the status effect for 60s after it was finished. The immunity was there so that you couldn't chain the effect back to back. I just re-implemented it so as to prevent the same problem with Double SCH and to make the CD line up with 2/3 Fairy abilities.
• Conversation Tactics will allow you to exchange all your currently accumulated stacks of Ruminate for Aetherflow. The only real thing to consider would be whether or not we would need to burn a Ruminate stack for a Double Weave Window vs the single weave of Broil in EW for mechanics or just because of some excessive movement for mechanics.
• I purposefully didn't include durations, CDs or %s on my suggestions because I haven't done the math yet to make these suggestion as balanced as possible but for the sake of argument, let's make CT a 2 minute CD. Assuming a lack of needing to Double Weave with Ruin 2 or the lack of needing to utilize Fey Blessing, this means that within the 2 minute window, we would have at least 1-2 stack of Ruminate available for CT, assuming we used 1 Ruminate for the Virus Debuff, which would be logical given that most bosses will use at least 1 raid wide skill in that time frame
• Since I'm only suggesting the removal of Dissipation, ED would remain as is to still allow the same functionality of using CT to exchange Ruminate for EDs if you so choose.

Tell me, is getting rid of Ruminate stacks for CT any different than getting rid of the fairy for Dissipation when the ultimate thing is that they give you more Aetherflow, which seems to be the crux of your argument. Both function identically to one another with the only real difference being that CT requires a form of build up to it to reach its full potential but offers a useful utility via Ruminate vs Dissipation requiring no build up and blocking off building Fairy Gauge with its use. It's the same skill minus the anti-synergy but you feel that it forces wasteful casts but realistically the DPS gain over plain Ruin 2 and the added utility says overwise. It's busy work sure but adding an extra layer of busy work to Healers is all that the majority of us are asking for to help break up Broil spam so settling for just the basics seems like a waste really.