"Everyone's so open and friendly" is a lie

[linayar]

I think that if large swathes of the community are being ignored in order to declare that same community to be 'great' then it is a sign that things aren't nearly so wonderful after all.

Exactly how many 'exceptions' does there need to be before something becomes an established trend, for that matter?

Well, I disagree that they are large "swaths" of the community. If they were, the community's perception of itself would be different.

This behavior is heavily, albeit maybe inadvertently, encouraged by widespread community attitudes.

A lot of online content for this game revolves around bashing other games. If you look at the top FFXIV reddit posts from this year, the top two are about WoW. There are many more wow-related memes in the top 20, almost all of them being overwhelmingly negative. I've also seen content reach the front page mocking New World, and basically any other MMO that has launched during FFXIVs lifespan. Just look at how frequently threads about other games are created in this forum, even though it's usually totally irrelevant to 14.

I've never been in another gaming community that relied so heavily on bashing other games, and the people who enjoy them, for content. Maybe back in like 2010 with the whole CoD vs Battlefield thing?



Try mentioning that you play New World, World of Warcraft, or League of Legends into basically any public chat on 14 and see what happens.

Well, considering this game has plenty of players that come from other games, it does seem a significant portion of them would have some baggage that they carry over.

But criticizing another game doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing as far as community relationship goes.

In fact, it can also go the other way. People using other games as example of what they don't like to see and people just brush it off with statements like "WoW bad, FFXIV good." That's just another form of saying GCBTW.

[Theodric]

Well, I disagree that they are large "swaths" of the community. If they were, the community's perception of itself would be different.

Multiple people have spoken at length of their experiences with the more dangerous and creepier elements within the community. Within this thread and elsewhere. As such, I don't think it can be brushed off as a tiny minority at this point.

There's also a large portion of players who, willingly or unknowingly, cover for the abusers in turn. They downplay the problems that exist. It reminds me very much of Yotsuyu's background, funnily enough. Plenty of people come to recognise that abuse is happening, but they are all to happy to maintain the lie that everything is fine or that it isn't a 'concern' because it isn't affecting them directly.

It also doesn't take much for vocal elements within this community to get incredibly enraged. Again, as posted about repeatedly earlier within this thread, simply liking or disliking the 'wrong' characters is enough for many individuals to get horrid death threats and persistent campaigns of harassment both in-game and outside of it.

[Izscha]

Multiple people have spoken at length of their experiences with the more dangerous and creepier elements within the community. Within this thread and elsewhere. As such, I don't think it can be brushed off as a tiny minority at this point.

There's also a large portion of players who, willingly or unknowingly, cover for the abusers in turn. They downplay the problems that exist. It reminds me very much of Yotsuyu's background, funnily enough. Plenty of people come to recognise that abuse is happening, but they are all to happy to maintain the lie that everything is fine or that it isn't a 'concern' because it isn't affecting them directly.

It also doesn't take much for vocal elements within this community to get incredibly enraged. Again, as posted about repeatedly earlier within this thread, simply liking or disliking the 'wrong' characters is enough for many individuals to get horrid death threats and persistent campaigns of harassment both in-game and outside of it.

Aren't you the one that wanted to do RP stuff as garlean and got ppl harassing you for it ? iirc
I may be wrong but i thought it was you.

[Lauront]

Multiple people have spoken at length of their experiences with the more dangerous and creepier elements within the community. Within this thread and elsewhere. As such, I don't think it can be brushed off as a tiny minority at this point.

There's also a large portion of players who, willingly or unknowingly, cover for the abusers in turn. They downplay the problems that exist. It reminds me very much of Yotsuyu's background, funnily enough. Plenty of people come to recognise that abuse is happening, but they are all to happy to maintain the lie that everything is fine or that it isn't a 'concern' because it isn't affecting them directly.

It also doesn't take much for vocal elements within this community to get incredibly enraged. Again, as posted about repeatedly earlier within this thread, simply liking or disliking the 'wrong' characters is enough for many individuals to get horrid death threats and persistent campaigns of harassment both in-game and outside of it.

And of course a lot of people who act this way don't see themselves as a problem...

[Theodric]

Aren't you the one that wanted to do RP stuff as garlean and got ppl harassing you for it ? iirc
I may be wrong but i thought it was you.

Yeah, it has happened to a number of people who attempted to role-play a Garlean or some other form of antagonist. Even people portraying defectors are targeted at times. The game seems to have a large number of individuals who see their character as 'themselves' and as such act like anything in opposition to their self insert is the worst, most brutal thing ever to exist.

I stopped bothering with the FFXIV Reddit altogether simply because a single mention of anyone liking the Ascians or the Garleans has a habit of devolving into accusations of those people being 'terrible people'. I can only assume there's a lot of people playing this game who do not realise that fictional characters are just that - fictional.

It sucks a lot of the fun out of the game, though I've found things are much calmer over on the European servers for what that is worth.

[LittleImp]

But criticizing another game doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing as far as community relationship goes.

When negative comments about the nature of another game and its players are a core part of your community's lingo, I have to disagree. The terms "WoW player" and "WoW Refugee" are used as generic insults constantly on 14. Imagine you're new to another game, and people repeatedly say things like "FFXIV player lol" any time you make a mistake.

In fact, it can also go the other way. People using other games as example of what they don't like to see and people just brush it off with statements like "WoW bad, FFXIV good." That's just another form of saying GCBTW.

It's interesting how it's totally acceptable to criticize other games, but the moment you try to criticize anything in 14 it's not unusual to get dogpiled and personally attacked, even if the criticisms are regarding extremely mundane things.

see: posts regarding the mogstation ui, customer support or purchasing/activating game codes (or god forbid posts actually criticizing gameplay mechanics).

[linayar]

Multiple people have spoken at length of their experiences with the more dangerous and creepier elements within the community. Within this thread and elsewhere. As such, I don't think it can be brushed off as a tiny minority at this point.

We do have a fairly large community, so I don't think that the presence of multiple complaints can suddenly make them not a tiny minority.

There's also a large portion of players who, willingly or unknowingly, cover for the abusers in turn. They downplay the problems that exist. It reminds me very much of Yotsuyu's background, funnily enough. Plenty of people come to recognise that abuse is happening, but they are all to happy to maintain the lie that everything is fine or that it isn't a 'concern' because it isn't affecting them directly.

This one, unfortunately, is something that will always happen because there is no actual judicial system, especially outside of the game. Unless it's out in the public for anyone to see, it's just a case of having to trust someone when talking about private experiences.

In a way, the growth of the community outside of the game makes it harder to police the community. That's why when people say this community is great, most are referring to their in-game experiences.

It also doesn't take much for vocal elements within this community to get incredibly enraged. Again, as posted about repeatedly earlier within this thread, simply liking or disliking the 'wrong' characters is enough for many individuals to get horrid death threats and persistent campaigns of harassment both in-game and outside of it.

And that's why rules matter and the platform matters.

People act like having rules means the community is bad, when those rules are what makes the community better than it could be.

A gaming community's purpose is not to change people's inclinations, but to foster a place where people can have a "safe place" to interact with one another over common interest (mainly the game).

As much as people like to champion "inclusivity," any community, by nature, has to be exclusionary. So when people do take things too far in their behavior, you cut them off and report them as necessary to whatever appropriate authority (be it in-game GM or a social platform's enforcement team).

People sending death threats, for example, is not acceptable in FFXIV as far as I know. Therefore, it is easy to conclude that people who behave in such cannot represent the community in any way that would reflect on the community.

[Izscha]

Yeah, it has happened to a number of people who attempted to role-play a Garlean or some other form of antagonist. Even people portraying defectors are targeted at times. The game seems to have a large number of individuals who see their character as 'themselves' and as such act like anything in opposition to their self insert is the worst, most brutal thing ever to exist.

I stopped bothering with the FFXIV Reddit altogether simply because a single mention of anyone liking the Ascians or the Garleans has a habit of devolving into accusations of those people being 'terrible people'. I can only assume there's a lot of people playing this game who do not realise that fictional characters are just that - fictional.

It sucks a lot of the fun out of the game, though I've found things are much calmer over on the European servers for what that is worth.

Tbh i try to avoid the RP community as much as possible because that's really not my thing, but the few thing i did see did prove me that indeed some do really take this stuff way too seriously and would have no problem harassing someone else over it.
And i do get why ppl would like the ascien or garlean, even in this game they do show countless time that it's far from being just "good vs bad" type of things.
Even then, if you want to be a villain as a RP who the heck are they to harass you over it lol
I really dont get it, that's the point of role playing, and not everyone wants to be the good guy, we need villains in our stories not the generic "i'm op and too good to everyone" kind of characters.
Hope you won't have much problem with this kind of ppl, if that's what you enjoy go ahead.
And reddit yikes really i can't stand it, even ppl on this forum are more open minded than most there and it says a lot.

[linayar]

When negative comments about the nature of another game and its players are a core part of your community's lingo, I have to disagree. The terms "WoW player" and "WoW Refugee" are used as generic insults constantly on 14. Imagine you're new to another game, and people repeatedly say things like "FFXIV player lol" any time you make a mistake.

It's circumstantial, isn't it? There have always been WoW players who have either moved to FFXIV or started to play both games. The difference is that there seems to be a lot more recently and it's being done more publicly. As far as I know, those terms are recent terms, especially refugee.

And I disagree that they are used as generic insults. They are used as a label, sure, but people use labels to identify. It's what people associate with those labels that determine whether it's a positive usage or negative. Streamers welcoming new WoW players can title their stream with "WoW refugees are welcomed." If anything, the term refugee is an insult for WoW, as if it's a game that has refugees, not the refugees.

It's interesting how it's totally acceptable to criticize other games, but the moment you try to criticize anything in 14 it's not unusual to get dogpiled and personally attacked, even if the criticisms are regarding extremely mundane things.

see: posts regarding the mogstation ui, customer support or purchasing/activating game codes (or god forbid posts actually criticizing gameplay mechanics).

Why would that be interesting? You would expect to find people that are happy with the game as is then not.

[Kozh]

Yeah, it has happened to a number of people who attempted to role-play a Garlean or some other form of antagonist. Even people portraying defectors are targeted at times. The game seems to have a large number of individuals who see their character as 'themselves' and as such act like anything in opposition to their self insert is the worst, most brutal thing ever to exist.

I stopped bothering with the FFXIV Reddit altogether simply because a single mention of anyone liking the Ascians or the Garleans has a habit of devolving into accusations of those people being 'terrible people'. I can only assume there's a lot of people playing this game who do not realise that fictional characters are just that - fictional.

Oh god, this reminds me of that time on reddit where I comment to an Ascian related thread. I was just saying "if ffxiv has choices, I would side with emet", and unsurprisingly got called real life nazi and genocider, I kid you not.

Isn't that actually kinda insensitive to compare something fictional to horrible real life events?