"Everyone's so open and friendly" is a lie

[linayar]

Pretty ironic for a game that tell story about how being tempered is a bad thing, yet the community act like they're tempered by ffxiv and yoshi-p XD

From the (very overused, unfunny, and annoying) "have you tried..." jokes, to white knighting. It's tiring. Unless your complain is the big one like glamour plates and housing etc., more often than not people will tell you to just suck it up.

So, your complaint is basically that there are people who actually enjoy the game and are vocal about it.

Well tbh I actually have no problem with people being toxic, since as many others has pointed out, no community is completely toxic-free, but the way this community pretend to be the best community is very eye-rolling. There's a reason GCBTW meme exist.

For me, it's so tiring when people are too cynical about other people's enjoyment of something, be it a game or a community.

You don't have to have a perfect community/game to think it's the best. And what's best would differ from person to person anyway, based on their experience and values.

But it shouldn't be strange to go to places where supposed fans of a game would gather (thus, its community) and find people who think it's the best.

What's strange is finding people who are trying to stifle other's "enthusiasm" for whatever reason. Of course, some people might just be trying to set a good/realistic expectation, but I'd rather people err on the side of being positive than negative.

So, yeah, there's a reason that meme exist, just not a good one.

[LittleImp]

What's strange is finding people who are trying to stifle other's "enthusiasm" for whatever reason. Of course, some people might just be trying to set a good/realistic expectation, but I'd rather people err on the side of being positive than negative.

So, yeah, there's a reason that meme exist, just not a good one.

There's a point where the "enthusiasm" spills over into nastiness. Some FFXIV players are downright militant about their devotion to the game; They turn up in the comment sections of media about other games and crap all over games they haven't even played, while promoting FFXIV like we're back in the days of the console wars. This isn't just restricted to WoW either; I've seen it happening in the comments with many other games, including some of the games 14 was 'competing' with for that golden joystick award.

Another example, my social circle on FFXIV includes a few small to medium streamers, and pretty much all of them have a few creepy regulars (often top donators) who will guilt them and get weirdly emotional any time they try to stream another game. One of them ended up totally burning out on the game because of it and basically went on hiatus.

Cult-like behavior does effect people negatively, so it's worth some level of criticism.

[linayar]

Cult-like behavior does effect people negatively, so it's worth some level of criticism.

Sure, but are you ascribing that behavior to (and therefore criticizes) to those individuals or the community as a whole? Because it seems, there are people who would do the latter.

When people say this game has a great community, do you think those behaviors are what they're applauding? If not, then any exception you may point about the community is just that, exceptions.

So, yes, we can agree that people can take anything (like or dislike toward something) too far, and people can still say this game's community is great or nice or the best, and they wouldn't be contradictory statements.

[LittleImp]

Sure, but are you ascribing that behavior to (and therefore criticizes) to those individuals or the community as a whole? Because it seems, there are people who would do the latter.

When people say this game has a great community, do you think those behaviors are what they're applauding? If not, then any exception you may point about the community is just that, exceptions.

So, yes, we can agree that people can take anything (like or dislike toward something) too far, and people can still say this game's community is great or nice or the best, and they wouldn't be contradictory statements.

This behavior is heavily, albeit maybe inadvertently, encouraged by widespread community attitudes.

A lot of online content for this game revolves around bashing other games. If you look at the top FFXIV reddit posts from this year, the top two are about WoW. There are many more wow-related memes in the top 20, almost all of them being overwhelmingly negative. I've also seen content reach the front page mocking New World, and basically any other MMO that has launched during FFXIVs lifespan. Just look at how frequently threads about other games are created in this forum, even though it's usually totally irrelevant to 14.

I've never been in another gaming community that relied so heavily on bashing other games, and the people who enjoy them, for content. Maybe back in like 2010 with the whole CoD vs Battlefield thing?

For me, it's so tiring when people are too cynical about other people's enjoyment of something, be it a game or a community.

Try mentioning that you play New World, World of Warcraft, or League of Legends into basically any public chat on 14 and see what happens.

[linayar]

I think that if large swathes of the community are being ignored in order to declare that same community to be 'great' then it is a sign that things aren't nearly so wonderful after all.

Exactly how many 'exceptions' does there need to be before something becomes an established trend, for that matter?

Well, I disagree that they are large "swaths" of the community. If they were, the community's perception of itself would be different.

This behavior is heavily, albeit maybe inadvertently, encouraged by widespread community attitudes.

A lot of online content for this game revolves around bashing other games. If you look at the top FFXIV reddit posts from this year, the top two are about WoW. There are many more wow-related memes in the top 20, almost all of them being overwhelmingly negative. I've also seen content reach the front page mocking New World, and basically any other MMO that has launched during FFXIVs lifespan. Just look at how frequently threads about other games are created in this forum, even though it's usually totally irrelevant to 14.

I've never been in another gaming community that relied so heavily on bashing other games, and the people who enjoy them, for content. Maybe back in like 2010 with the whole CoD vs Battlefield thing?



Try mentioning that you play New World, World of Warcraft, or League of Legends into basically any public chat on 14 and see what happens.

Well, considering this game has plenty of players that come from other games, it does seem a significant portion of them would have some baggage that they carry over.

But criticizing another game doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing as far as community relationship goes.

In fact, it can also go the other way. People using other games as example of what they don't like to see and people just brush it off with statements like "WoW bad, FFXIV good." That's just another form of saying GCBTW.

[Theodric]

Well, I disagree that they are large "swaths" of the community. If they were, the community's perception of itself would be different.

Multiple people have spoken at length of their experiences with the more dangerous and creepier elements within the community. Within this thread and elsewhere. As such, I don't think it can be brushed off as a tiny minority at this point.

There's also a large portion of players who, willingly or unknowingly, cover for the abusers in turn. They downplay the problems that exist. It reminds me very much of Yotsuyu's background, funnily enough. Plenty of people come to recognise that abuse is happening, but they are all to happy to maintain the lie that everything is fine or that it isn't a 'concern' because it isn't affecting them directly.

It also doesn't take much for vocal elements within this community to get incredibly enraged. Again, as posted about repeatedly earlier within this thread, simply liking or disliking the 'wrong' characters is enough for many individuals to get horrid death threats and persistent campaigns of harassment both in-game and outside of it.

[Izscha]

Multiple people have spoken at length of their experiences with the more dangerous and creepier elements within the community. Within this thread and elsewhere. As such, I don't think it can be brushed off as a tiny minority at this point.

There's also a large portion of players who, willingly or unknowingly, cover for the abusers in turn. They downplay the problems that exist. It reminds me very much of Yotsuyu's background, funnily enough. Plenty of people come to recognise that abuse is happening, but they are all to happy to maintain the lie that everything is fine or that it isn't a 'concern' because it isn't affecting them directly.

It also doesn't take much for vocal elements within this community to get incredibly enraged. Again, as posted about repeatedly earlier within this thread, simply liking or disliking the 'wrong' characters is enough for many individuals to get horrid death threats and persistent campaigns of harassment both in-game and outside of it.

Aren't you the one that wanted to do RP stuff as garlean and got ppl harassing you for it ? iirc
I may be wrong but i thought it was you.

[Lauront]

Multiple people have spoken at length of their experiences with the more dangerous and creepier elements within the community. Within this thread and elsewhere. As such, I don't think it can be brushed off as a tiny minority at this point.

There's also a large portion of players who, willingly or unknowingly, cover for the abusers in turn. They downplay the problems that exist. It reminds me very much of Yotsuyu's background, funnily enough. Plenty of people come to recognise that abuse is happening, but they are all to happy to maintain the lie that everything is fine or that it isn't a 'concern' because it isn't affecting them directly.

It also doesn't take much for vocal elements within this community to get incredibly enraged. Again, as posted about repeatedly earlier within this thread, simply liking or disliking the 'wrong' characters is enough for many individuals to get horrid death threats and persistent campaigns of harassment both in-game and outside of it.

And of course a lot of people who act this way don't see themselves as a problem...

[linayar]

Multiple people have spoken at length of their experiences with the more dangerous and creepier elements within the community. Within this thread and elsewhere. As such, I don't think it can be brushed off as a tiny minority at this point.

We do have a fairly large community, so I don't think that the presence of multiple complaints can suddenly make them not a tiny minority.

There's also a large portion of players who, willingly or unknowingly, cover for the abusers in turn. They downplay the problems that exist. It reminds me very much of Yotsuyu's background, funnily enough. Plenty of people come to recognise that abuse is happening, but they are all to happy to maintain the lie that everything is fine or that it isn't a 'concern' because it isn't affecting them directly.

This one, unfortunately, is something that will always happen because there is no actual judicial system, especially outside of the game. Unless it's out in the public for anyone to see, it's just a case of having to trust someone when talking about private experiences.

In a way, the growth of the community outside of the game makes it harder to police the community. That's why when people say this community is great, most are referring to their in-game experiences.

It also doesn't take much for vocal elements within this community to get incredibly enraged. Again, as posted about repeatedly earlier within this thread, simply liking or disliking the 'wrong' characters is enough for many individuals to get horrid death threats and persistent campaigns of harassment both in-game and outside of it.

And that's why rules matter and the platform matters.

People act like having rules means the community is bad, when those rules are what makes the community better than it could be.

A gaming community's purpose is not to change people's inclinations, but to foster a place where people can have a "safe place" to interact with one another over common interest (mainly the game).

As much as people like to champion "inclusivity," any community, by nature, has to be exclusionary. So when people do take things too far in their behavior, you cut them off and report them as necessary to whatever appropriate authority (be it in-game GM or a social platform's enforcement team).

People sending death threats, for example, is not acceptable in FFXIV as far as I know. Therefore, it is easy to conclude that people who behave in such cannot represent the community in any way that would reflect on the community.

[LittleImp]

But criticizing another game doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing as far as community relationship goes.

When negative comments about the nature of another game and its players are a core part of your community's lingo, I have to disagree. The terms "WoW player" and "WoW Refugee" are used as generic insults constantly on 14. Imagine you're new to another game, and people repeatedly say things like "FFXIV player lol" any time you make a mistake.

In fact, it can also go the other way. People using other games as example of what they don't like to see and people just brush it off with statements like "WoW bad, FFXIV good." That's just another form of saying GCBTW.

It's interesting how it's totally acceptable to criticize other games, but the moment you try to criticize anything in 14 it's not unusual to get dogpiled and personally attacked, even if the criticisms are regarding extremely mundane things.

see: posts regarding the mogstation ui, customer support or purchasing/activating game codes (or god forbid posts actually criticizing gameplay mechanics).