"Everyone's so open and friendly" is a lie

[Nethereal]

Of the two - I feel like the "Toxic Casualism" is a better demon to have in the community. To be dead honest. If favors acceptance vs denial.

Quick correction, toxic casualism does not favor acceptance if it did they wouldn't mind you calling them out and would accept good advice or at least think about what is being said to them.
toxic elitism leans more towards acceptance than the prior as long as you give them the math they will do it.

What you're talking about is the fact toxic casuals don't call other people out because they're bad and don't want to be called out themselves, they're not accepting they just don't want to be put on the spot.
Toxic elitists do not care because they are doing what they're supposed to and if they're not they know they can do it and get better.

[Hyrist]

Deaths being the more prevalent thing. You don't need third party tools to prove bad performances. If a person is surviving mechanics long enough to hit enrage, and damage is an issue, usually the innate variances in player skill and the low bar to pass muster when it comes to content (even at savage level) is provably easy enough to do so. So please don't reference the need for third party tools, it's just not true. The tools enable quicker turn around in the process of review-to-refinement for optimization. They are not a necessity in any regard. Those who are kicking without discussion out of fear of reprimand do so out of unneeded paranoia. (Or fail to openly address their own issues with communicating effectively.) Again each case is reviewed before the action is taken. If you're getting sent to gaol, you very well likely did something wrong. the GMs do have access to the chat logs when needed.

About Save the Queen zones and events.
I can't argue very much against personal impressions because to be blunt, those a personal impressions and they can't, by nature, reflect the whole. By contrast, while you feel discouraged to overperform because you are feeling social pressure of those who are underperforming, I feel differently on the matter. Whether it's hero complex or spite, I feel the need to preform even better in circumstances like that for both mine and others sakes. You may see it as falling victim the manipulations of people who don't care enough to perform on par. However I both cannot be bothered to make presumptions at people's circumstance and intentions in most situations, and actively try to prevent myself from doing so when I am somehow bothered.

I do what I can within my own tolerance levels regardless. If that serves to inspire others to do better or do worse is none of my concern. Most of those people I will likely not see again and it serves little to be upset about it. Instead I provide what information I can that will be helpful to others the next go around and leave it at that. If I'm concerned that the roulettes or wide group activities are too far below the threshold I go looking for a premade group, and so forth.

I tend to refer to those you address as "Toxic Casualism" as those who are oversensitive. I see this when I question the perspective of the elite as well. We have a decent number of maladjusted people in this world. I accept that as truth and move on. It just seems that there is a stronger insular community among gaming that views gaming skill as a sense of personal validation - which is something I do actively discourage. Developing skill to be able to pass content and try to be respectful of others (Including trying to develop said skill) is all part of common courtesy. But I don't take offense when someone's not up to my level. (Especially as my level of skill has declined with my availability and subsequent inability to adapt to changes.) It's not worth the time.

[Krotoan]

And here we are.. again.

"This community is great/friendly/betterthanXXXXX"
"No,This community is horrible because I had a bad experience!"
"Yeah, This "great" community did these horrible things!"

We did this back in the "GCBTW" threads.


All game communities draw from the same pool of gamers who run the gamut from saintly to sadistic. FFXIV has rules in place that are enforced pretty regularly (but not perfectly) to curb a lot of the surface toxicity. People think a couple seconds more about saying things because there's a chance someone may report you and you'll actually face consequences for that offhand comment you made without thinking... sometimes.
All communities have fanatics. People who make a thing their life and personality and vehemently defend against any criticism. I have found them in every single community and yes, they are just as bad as the ones you think are worse. FFXIV is no exception.

The game itself also isn't structured mainly around competition so people are more likely to help than actively crush others progress because it doesn't hurt their progress... most times. That's all it is. The game tends to give a better impression because of how it's designed, what it incentivizes and how it's rules are enforced. It's not that the players themselves are any better behaved in the end.

[Caurcas]

The best game "community" is to have no game community. Don't tie yourself to such a broad and diverse group of people. We exist within smaller groups.of fellows and friends, and this is where it should stay. GCBTW is what happens when you push broad community, a terrifying accurate caricature of how other see people who constantly talk about 14.

[KizuyaKatogami]

What happened in the cases of scottzone and lazypeon was not toxic casualism.

It was toxic fanaticism, or tribalism as some content creators are now referring to it. It was people who are so rabidly obsessed with something that they can't accept negative feedback. There was nothing casual about their responses at all.

I wasn’t saying it was toxic casualism. I was giving two separate examples of the toxicity rampant in 14.

[Kozh]

My favorite posts in this thread are the ones where people complain that this game's community is to soft, coddled or toxic because it doesn't welcome their posts insulting, harassing, or abusing other members of the community; usually with the unsubtle implication that it's only wrong because the community isn't coddling them, personally.

The most strawman argument I've ever seen. "let me paint the other side as evil as possible. I win yay!"

Overall there is a rather wide difference between conversations held here (And other community boards) verses those held in game - to the point where I feel more like the forums, and by proxy those that flock to them, are the misrepresentation.

If anything, I feel like in game conversations are slightly more misrepresentation than outside of game. With the exception of arguing and kicking during duty, people very rarely talk or having debate about things we're discussing right now. Instead people will vent their experiences, positive or negative, in ffxiv platforms (reddit, Twitter, forum, etc) because the rule is less strict.

[Rinhi]

sorry for the doubleposts, but I didn't see this edit till now!

You don't. That's a strawman argument. Your poor social skills in relaying that message to the player in a manner of which that matches the minimum bar of common decency is what puts you at risk.(Not you personally, adapting the second case due to your use of first case in this hypothetical.) And rampant negativity would harm anyone's enjoyment. The message itself isn't a risk and most players are capable of relaying assistance and feedback on playstyles without issue. It's the outliers that get reported.

and yet that dry-cut example is directly used in the clarified TOS as an example that's not allowed anymore, that you can't directly tell someone that they're the one holding up progress, that they're the ones responsible for the wipes and lockouts
instead you're basically being told to just silently kick that person if your suggestions get ignored
I'm all for being nice*, but sometimes some people have to be told that they're the ones causing an issue, be it wipes or way too low DPS, to get better, to improve

*though I admit I might come across as crass, please forgive me

As far as these forums being an affect: It was the very same introspection I mentioned that lead to that conclusion, actually. It's not so much the difference of opinion but the bad faith arguments and overall negative tone which is such an incredibly stark contrast to those who are actually playing the game and enjoying themselves while doing so. (In the several friends groups I have this place is universally referred to as a cesspool. Anecdotal sure, but as I said, environments determine experiences.) Sure, the opinions differ, and tolerating them is a fair statement - to a degree. But there are limits and I know mine better.

I was just giving you a snarky response back due to it and I apologize for that, I guessed that said introspection or something like it was what made you use the forums less
however, I do disagree that the forum is overly negative, I just think people are more 'free' with their opinions compared to the game, which I guess can be a good and bad thing, but I personally find it good that it is like this
I don't think it's as much of a 'cesspool' as the likes of reddit, 4chan, twitter or certain discords, but I do understand why people could see it like that, even if I disagree

It may not be that you are a miserable git - but the arguments most commonly seen here? Defiantly depict misery. Whether that's someone just coming to air grievances so they don't in their own groups, or they feel like it's valid critique doesn't change the negative contribution to the environment - and I found myself better for only visiting these places in the rarer downtime moments. I'll reiterate this - you may benefit from taking time to figure out what's affecting you and how to alleviate that - rather than simply pointing the blame.
For me? It's taking these forums in shifts.

I think it's harsh opinions or, at least in the posters eyes :P, the honest truth that gets posted, rather than misery
I can just speak for myself, but despite my posts may making you think the players, community or forums affect my negatively, I can really just say that they don't, honestly
my opinion doesn't come from a place of negative emotion, I don't use reddit, twitter or 4chan not because they affect me, but rather that I simply just don't like the vibes there, all for various reasons, but I do think that absolving people of their personal responsibility in any way or form isn't good and that burying any non-friendly experience is in my eyes painting this community worse than it is*, hence my posts

*in the sense of: why hide something that happens in every community? this fake 'only niceness in this game' that lots of players subscribe to isn't what I'd call good, tbh

[Hyrist]

So, we've devolved as far as into someone saying that the FFXIV Game is a misrepresentation of the community... inside the very game.

The opposing argument has twisted itself so deep that the source of truth for community's environment is not the game it self.

It doesn't matter that a person rude outside the game. The source of truth for the interactions of players - when it comes to judging the feeling of the game - is inside the game. FFXIV can't control outside. The truth of the matter is a "FFXIV Player" Could be handing death threats to anyone opposing the game long after they received a permanent ban for their actions within the game. Are you seriously saying that you're considering that 'the community'? Again it's been stated that we actively try to prevent and push out those elements - to a better degree than most games at any rate.

The hard truth is that it is the game, its players, and its policies as a whole make the community. But the scope is within the game itself, where all those components apply.

It's not a lie to enforce behavior policies that make people treat one another by a set standard. There is more than enough wiggle room for constructive feedback to players within the game when people are struggling. (Yes, even at Savage difficulty.)

It's the difference between walking into a fine restaurant where everyone talks softly because there's a noise policy, and enjoying the scenery, verses the same group in an underground bar brawl. Neither are a false representation of the communities, even if the same people attend both places. But if the group at the bar is toxic there, but behaves in the fine dining restaurant, the community in the restaurant is still seen in a better light - because those people are respecting the rules of their houses. Whether this because they fear getting kicked out or they fully agree with the policies is irrelevant.

That's why, if you're a LoL player, doing what you should be doing in FFXIV, then you're a FFXIV player. But outside the game, it's your choice how to behave. If those actions and attitude reflect the behaviors of one game over another, you might get stuck with the 'worse' lablel.

The same can be said of these forums. Whichever you think is more 'truthful' is irrelevant. Outside the scope of the game where the policies are enforced, you don't get the same sort of behavior. Thus, this place, isn't a proper representation of the in-game community. That's the standard, not the other way around. And that gets worse the further out of the FFXIV circle you get.

That said, many FFXIV's players fervor for the game can get to the point of being cultish - probably because FFXIV is doing so well in and of itself and it stirs a lot of feeling of investment in the game. People feel compelled to defend something that brings them joy and emotionally invests them into it. How they behave as a result of that? Well, that ends up being a person to person situation.

This game, and its people, can and frequently has reduced individuals to tears of joy. It's changed peoples lives for the better and players outside the sphere of FFXIV have widely acknowledged the improvements FFXIV has over other communities. If you wish to point out its flaws - so be it. You have your own opinions and experiences. But the facts are that FFXIV is 'good enough' to be acknowledged for its community. There's no point being salty about it. Question, identify, focus, and improve. That's what we can do and continue to do. That's how we can turn negative events made by outliers of the community into positive ones as well.

It's your choice.

But if you do happen to decide to contribute rather than conflict. I'd suggest taking a harsh look at how you'd provide feedback to underperforming players in a manner in which you would improve them. This seems to be a sticking point. It's more than possible within the constraints to teach people how to preform well in raids, or inform them they are underperforming without violating the ToS.

Anyways. I'm at the end of my tether for this one. I do hope you take what you see of the community and its flaws and do more than just complain - but work to improve where you can. That's my policy to take on this - and it's reinforced thanks to this thread. We can take individual experiences and learn how to improve upon them, and do our best to put our best face forward. That's not a lie, that's an effort. That effort was noticed and recognized - and I hope we continue to put that effort forward.

[KizuyaKatogami]

This game, and its people, can and frequently has reduced individuals to tears of joy. It's changed peoples lives for the better and players outside the sphere of FFXIV have widely acknowledged the improvements FFXIV has over other communities. If you wish to point out its flaws - so be it. You have your own opinions and experiences. But the facts are that FFXIV is 'good enough' to be acknowledged for its community. There's no point being salty about it. Question, identify, focus, and improve. That's what we can do and continue to do. That's how we can turn negative events made by outliers of the community into positive ones as well.

You could say this about most other mmo’s because of the social aspect of it lol. Many people have met their spouses etc in mmo’s. This isn’t something unique to 14. No ones really being salty, they’re just pointing out facts. It isn’t a surprise the big mmo community won since…ofc they’d vote for themselves lmao. It’s a battle of numbers.I do find it funny how much you people make excuses for things like death threats, trying as much as possible to find ways of saying it isn’t necessarily the community at fault. “It could be someone who got banned a long time ago.” Yeah no. If someone got perma-banned, the likelihood of them sending death threats and still supporting the game that banned them is…very improbable lmao. You guys try to find so many loopholes to examples of severe toxicity that it’s incredibly sad.I guess this is just like how the players who were purposely trolling asmongold on his first day, blocking the quest givers etc weren’t 14 players. They were level 80 and had savage raid mounts but sure, totally not 14 players just WoW trollers lmao.

[Snorky]

You could say this about most other mmo’s because of the social aspect of it lol. Many people have met their spouses etc in mmo’s. This isn’t something unique to 14. No ones really being salty, they’re just pointing out facts. It isn’t a surprise the big mmo community won since…ofc they’d vote for themselves lmao. It’s a battle of numbers.I do find it funny how much you people make excuses for things like death threats, trying as much as possible to find ways of saying it isn’t necessarily the community at fault. “It could be someone who got banned a long time ago.” Yeah no. If someone got perma-banned, the likelihood of them sending death threats and still supporting the game that banned them is…very improbable lmao. You guys try to find so many loopholes to examples of severe toxicity that it’s incredibly sad.I guess this is just like how the players who were purposely trolling asmongold on his first day, blocking the quest givers etc weren’t 14 players. They were level 80 and had savage raid mounts but sure, totally not 14 players just WoW trollers lmao.

Yes everyone here is mean and nasty, plotting and jerks. (Rolls eyes)/s Does that make you feel better? Honestly, you need to read what Hyrist wrote, of course there are bad elements in every community. If you are so very out raged and incensed about the players of FFXIV ( yeah I'm going there ) find another game. Yeah I'm mean./s