"Everyone's so open and friendly" is a lie

[Rinhi]

My favorite posts in this thread are the ones where people complain that this game's community is to soft, coddled or toxic because it doesn't welcome their posts insulting, harassing, or abusing other members of the community; usually with the unsubtle implication that it's only wrong because the community isn't coddling them, personally.

if I risk an infraction because I'm telling player A that their refusal to do mechanic X is making it impossible to progress, then yes, the community is coddled

but hey, it's easy to say this from a high horse, only an 'undesirable' can have this opinion, right? only someone that behaves like that could have that opinion, right?
that I've never insulted, harassed or abused a single other player (other than myself) in the entire time I've been playing will fall on deaf ears or you'll accuse me of lying, I bet

guess I'm just a miserable git like the other poster implied, that's the only reason I could have this opinion, after all!

I don't regular these forums as much as I used to because I've learned that my gameplay views and overall enjoyment is actually negatively impacted by the unchecked negativity and bad-faith arguments I find here. And I'm genuinely more happy. If that is a result of players actively 'suppressing dissenting voices' then I'm honestly all for it. The game won a reward based on its community behavior, and it's not the first time it's been lauded this way. Even if you disagree, enough people feel that way for it to be taken notice. Perhaps the issue with your personal experiences lie elsewhere? I find that introspection is healthy in times of misery. Sometimes being around the wrong people or frequenting the wrong places can color your perception of events as they fold out.

more double standards, yay! it's totally fine to drown out any kind of negative opinion about this game because it makes me feel better!
if a forum is affecting your enjoyment of a game negatively, maybe you should be the one that should do some introspection first before telling someone else to do so, cus it's not affecting mine, nor does the state of the community or people having a different opinion than mine
I don't hang around any negative places either, quite the opposite, actually, but please don't try to allude to 'other' reasons just to try to shut down someone else, please?

[Hyrist]

In my opinion, the 'active suppression' is of toxic behaviors that bring a poor representation of the the audience as a whole. Overall there is a rather wide difference between conversations held here (And other community boards) verses those held in game - to the point where I feel more like the forums, and by proxy those that flock to them, are the misrepresentation. Sometimes intentionally, sometimes not - as negative experiences are wont to be heard, even if they are in the firm minority.

I don't regular these forums as much as I used to because I've learned that my gameplay views and overall enjoyment is actually negatively impacted by the unchecked negativity and bad-faith arguments I find here. And I'm genuinely more happy. If that is a result of players actively 'suppressing dissenting voices' then I'm honestly all for it. The game won a reward based on its community behavior, and it's not the first time it's been lauded this way. Even if you disagree, enough people feel that way for it to be taken notice. Perhaps the issue with your personal experiences lie elsewhere? I find that introspection is healthy in times of misery. Sometimes being around the wrong people or frequenting the wrong places can color your perception of events as they fold out.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The game won a reward based on its community behavior, and it's not the first time it's been lauded this way.

You realize this means very little right? Of course the community is going to vote for itself lmao, this isn’t a surprise especially with the influx of new players.

[Hyrist]

You realize this means very little right? Of course the community is going to vote for itself lmao, this isn’t a surprise especially with the influx of new players.

If we're playing a game of numbers voting for themselves, World of Warcraft should be absolutely dominating those charts! (Note, this is said in satire if you didn't catch the tone.)

More to the point. FFXIV wouldn't even be up for voting if it did not qualify for a note to put it up for consideration. The fact that it's seen buy in large as a contender alone is a merit to its community. Of course those who enjoy their game and appreciate its community are going to vote. It's numbers are a testament to that statement, not a disqualifier. Your logic in this sort of boggles the mind. "We love this game and we like the people in it, but we can't vote for it because we love this game and play with the people we like in it."


It makes no sense.

if I risk an infraction because I'm telling player A that their refusal to do mechanic X is making it impossible to progress, then yes, the community is coddled

You don't. That's a strawman argument. Your poor social skills in relaying that message to the player in a manner of which that matches the minimum bar of common decency is what puts you at risk.(Not you personally, adapting the second case due to your use of first case in this hypothetical.) And rampant negativity would harm anyone's enjoyment. The message itself isn't a risk and most players are capable of relaying assistance and feedback on playstyles without issue. It's the outliers that get reported.

As far as these forums being an affect: It was the very same introspection I mentioned that lead to that conclusion, actually. It's not so much the difference of opinion but the bad faith arguments and overall negative tone which is such an incredibly stark contrast to those who are actually playing the game and enjoying themselves while doing so. (In the several friends groups I have this place is universally referred to as a cesspool. Anecdotal sure, but as I said, environments determine experiences.) Sure, the opinions differ, and tolerating them is a fair statement - to a degree. But there are limits and I know mine better.

It may not be that you are a miserable git - but the arguments most commonly seen here? Defiantly depict misery. Whether that's someone just coming to air grievances so they don't in their own groups, or they feel like it's valid critique doesn't change the negative contribution to the environment - and I found myself better for only visiting these places in the rarer downtime moments. I'll reiterate this - you may benefit from taking time to figure out what's affecting you and how to alleviate that - rather than simply pointing the blame.

For me? It's taking these forums in shifts.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Again, i point you to the scottzone and lazypeon situations, which both happened to things regarding in game, not on forums or anything, and resulted in death threats and doxxing from the loving amazing community. You seem to have this misconception that the only toxicity here is one where people are being negative, but toxic casualism is rampant at least on the dc that i’m on, and it just promotes laziness and wastes other people’s time. People not aoeing in dungeons in endgame content, or dpsing on healer etc and then getting an attitude when you point it out to them.

[Axxion]

Again, i point you to the scottzone and lazypeon situations, which both happened to things regarding in game, not on forums or anything, and resulted in death threats and doxxing from the loving amazing community. You seem to have this misconception that the only toxicity here is one where people are being negative, but toxic casualism is rampant at least on the dc that i’m on, and it just promotes laziness and wastes other people’s time. People not aoeing in dungeons in endgame content, or dpsing on healer etc and then getting an attitude when you point it out to them.

this, i remember this and what happened to peon. The video he made about 14 had so many downvotes, comment section was really toxic. Took down the video and then people started to make threats against him.

[Hyrist]

Again, i point you to the scottzone and lazypeon situations, which both happened to things regarding in game, not on forums or anything, and resulted in death threats and doxxing from the loving amazing community. You seem to have this misconception that the only toxicity here is one where people are being negative, but toxic casualism is rampant at least on the dc that i’m on, and it just promotes laziness and wastes other people’s time. People not aoeing in dungeons in endgame content, or dpsing on healer etc and then getting an attitude when you point it out to them.

People have attitudes. This is nothing new. It does not matter whether it's casual or elitism. Such behavior should not be tolerated and outliers in this regard exist in all games. That's not unheard of, it's not refuted. Remember what I sad about bad experiences are wont to be heard? This is part of that. The two you mention are cautionary tales about that sort of thing and players have been actively trying to push out those bad elements since. But for every one of those, there are many more content creators actually having a good experience thanks to (or in some cases in spite of) the community.

We're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but when you do comparisons, yes, there is a notable difference. Just like I note the difference between the general attitudes here, and in other parts of the community. Sorry you've been having a rough time with your DC though. Have you considered making a jump? (Please note the irony in that statement, it's meant as a lighthearted joke. We share the same DC.)

[Jojoya]

Again, i point you to the scottzone and lazypeon situations, which both happened to things regarding in game, not on forums or anything, and resulted in death threats and doxxing from the loving amazing community. You seem to have this misconception that the only toxicity here is one where people are being negative, but toxic casualism is rampant at least on the dc that i’m on, and it just promotes laziness and wastes other people’s time. People not aoeing in dungeons in endgame content, or dpsing on healer etc and then getting an attitude when you point it out to them.

What happened in the cases of scottzone and lazypeon was not toxic casualism.

It was toxic fanaticism, or tribalism as some content creators are now referring to it. It was people who are so rabidly obsessed with something that they can't accept negative feedback. There was nothing casual about their responses at all.

[Hyrist]

Toxic casualism vs Toxic Elitism. Sounds more like a battle of buzzwords. I view toxicity as more of a general thing applied to people's attitudes rather than one force or another. People are more casual here - the toxic ones are just louder. But we've had plenty of toxic elitism in FFXIV. But yes, in general FFXIV encourages casual play. This does lead to a lower skill threshold among players. Not wrong there.

Of the two - I feel like the "Toxic Casualism" is a better demon to have in the community. To be dead honest. If favors acceptance vs denial. Yes, it's frustrating when people can't grasp simple concepts. But in the end the game is about enjoyment, and there are more than enough social tools in this game to find those closer to your own expectations - even if it is to just commiserate with at times.

We've developed a fairly stable elite player base by accepting that there are many of those that will never reach the bar, but encouraging all to do so. This isn't an this-or-that situation when it comes to our playerbase. We've got toxicity on both ends, but in general most people seem to just be good with just going with the flow of things. But usually I'm not forced to choose between Elitism or Casualism because for things like DR or Bozja I can ask for help with my friend groups and generally get a reply or two. I just work on myself as I go. (Though of late life has intervened in that case. I do admit I play this game casually as I have other ongoing hobbies and projects and there's only so much energy to go around. Awell.)

[Michieltjuhh]

Toxic casualism vs Toxic Elitism. Sounds more like a battle of buzzwords. I view toxicity as more of a general thing applied to people's attitudes rather than one force or another. People are more casual here - the toxic ones are just louder. But we've had plenty of toxic elitism in FFXIV. But yes, in general FFXIV encourages casual play. This does lead to a lower skill threshold among players. Not wrong there.

Of the two - I feel like the "Toxic Casualism" is a better demon to have in the community. To be dead honest. If favors acceptance vs denial. Yes, it's frustrating when people can't grasp simple concepts. But in the end the game is about enjoyment, and there are more than enough social tools in this game to find those closer to your own expectations - even if it is to just commiserate with at times.

We've developed a fairly stable elite player base by accepting that there are many of those that will never reach the bar, but encouraging all to do so. This isn't an this-or-that situation when it comes to our playerbase. We've got toxicity on both ends, but in general most people seem to just be good with just going with the flow of things. But usually I'm not forced to choose between Elitism or Casualism because for things like DR or Bozja I can ask for help with my friend groups and generally get a reply or two. I just work on myself as I go. (Though of late life has intervened in that case. I do admit I play this game casually as I have other ongoing hobbies and projects and there's only so much energy to go around. Awell.)

They're terms used to indicate the state of the community. While both harbor negativities, and ideally neither are present, they almost always will be based on the design of the game. In FF14, I call it casualism because it is encouraged to have others do the work for you. Less effort means less energy spent, and there is no incentive to put in effort, save a few commendations assuming people even noticed or cared. Whenever I do busywork content in FF14 such as duty roulettes or the Bozja engagements, I feel more and more inclined to just join the crowd and warm the floor while doing something more productive - for myself - in the background. I don't, because I find putting in effort in somewhat trivial content is similar to working out IRL - keeping your skills in shape - but the fact that that mentality is present and the thought had even crossed my mind is problematic in and of itself, because many think alike and do actually act upon it, which is how you get scenarios like the one I described in my previous post. I see it as no different than abusing others for personal gain.

In an elitist community, on the other hand, this kind of behavior gets monitored by the community itself, as the tools to do so are provided. This however ends up getting abused to extremes where the bar for entry gets set way too high and failure is no longer permitted in the slightest, which is also negative.

In FF14, the two mindsets can clash when people with the 'toxic casualism' approach start signing up for groups for harder content and get abruptly removed without a word - since you're not allowed to give the reason, as it would be seen as being toxic and prove the use of illegal third party software to measure performance (if it wasn't blatantly obvious from the amount of deaths). But since this type of (limited) player monitoring is only possible for a small amount of the content in the game, the 'toxic casualism' approach is far more rampant throughout most of its content.