DPS resource gauges - bring back Kaiten, and improve other DPS too.

[cjbeagle]

Some of the SAM discussion referring to kenki as just a Shinten gauge got me thinking about job gauges, specifically resource bars that fill up incrementally and are then spent - not timers - so this thread is to summarize and discuss such resources for DPS jobs.



DRG has 1:
1) Firstminds' Focus can only be spent on Wyrmwind Thrust - no choice at all.

RPR has 2:
1) Soul Gauge can be spent on Blood Stalk (ST), Grim Swathe (AOE), or Gluttony (better than Blood Stalk for ST and better than Grim Swathe for AOE, but has a 60s cooldown) - Blood Stalk and Grim Swathe have mutually exclusive use cases, but Gluttony provides an optimization opportunity (albeit only once a minute).
2) Shroud Gauge can only be spent on Enshroud - no choice at all.

MNK has 1:
1) Chakra can be spend on The Forbidden Chakra (ST) or Enlightenment (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases.

SAM has 3:
1) Kenki can be spent on Shinten (ST), Senei (ST, better than Shinten, but has a 120s cooldown), Kyuten (AOE), Guren (AOE, better than Kyuten, but has a 120s cooldown), or movement abilities - prioritizing Senei/Guren when they're available offers an optimization opportunity (albeit only once every 2 minutes), but otherwise the spenders are mutually exclusive with a sidenote for the movement abilities not being free, however the cost of the movement abilities is so low that it doesn't require mindful pooling, so doesn't require meaningful decision-making.
2) Sen can be spent on Higanbana (ST, sometimes also useful in multi-target encounters), Tenka Goken (AOE), or Midare Setsugekka (ST), with optimization opportunities due to both Higanbana and Midare Setsugekka being used in ST and Higanbana sometimes being used in multi-target encounters as well.
3) Meditation can be spent on Shoha (ST) or Shoha II (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases.
NOTE: Prior to 6.1, Kaiten provided optimization opportunities in both ST and AOE situations by vying for priority against Shinten and Kyuten respectively.

NIN has 1:
1) Ninki Gauge can be spent on Bhavacakra (ST), Hellfrog Medium (AOE), or Bunshin (better than Bhavacakra for ST and better than Hellfrog Medium for AOE, but has a 90s cooldown) - Bhavacakra and Hellfrog Medium have mutually exclusive use cases, but Bunshin provides an optimization opportunity (albeit only once every 1.5m).

BDR has 1 during The Wanderer's Minuet:
1) Repertoire can only be spent on Pitch Perfect - no choice at all.

MCH has 2:
1) Heat Gauge can only be spent on Hypercharge - no choice at all.
2) Battery Gauge can only be spent on Automaton Queen - no choice at all.

DNC has 2:
1) Fourfold Feathers can be spent on Fan Dance (ST) or Fan Dance II (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases.
2) Esprit Gauge can only be spent on Saber Dance - no choice at all.

BLM has 1, arguably 2:
1) Polyglot can be spent on Xenoglossy (ST) or Foul (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases.
2) Mana actually matters for BLM and the entire core of their kit revolves around optimizing its usage - this is far and away the most complex gauge found in any job despite it being a generic resource.

SMN has 1:
1) Aetherflow can be spent on Fester (ST) or Painflare (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases.

RDM has 2, but it spends as 1:
1) Black and White Mana can be spent on the Riposte combo chain (ST) or Moulinet (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases.



In short, the "Shinten gauge" concept is par for the course - SAM still features some priority-based optimization with sen despite it being effectively removed from kenki, but otherwise, every DPS job with the exceptions of RPR and NIN has absolutely no priority-based optimization opportunities with their resource gauges.

To be clear, saying that this is par for the course is not condoning this design.

Prior to 6.1, SAM was the only DPS job that had priority-based optimization with 2 different resources - now none do unless you want to count Senei/Guren, but I'd argue that those shouldn't count since they just get used with Ikishoten anyway - there's no decision-making or even independent cooldown-tracking involved.

Prior to 6.1, SAM was the only DPS job whose resource-based priorities shifted more than once per minute - now none do.

They should have been striving to bring nuance to all DPS jobs' resource gauges, but instead of bringing the others up, they brought SAM down. Initially I assumed it was to simplify and homogenize SAM, but if that was their overarching design goal, then RPR wouldn't have launched with Gluttony - it doesn't make sense.



If I overlooked something or misrepresented something, please let me know.



Thoughts?





Per suggestion from xAFROx, a summary of tanks and healer as well:

PLD has 1, arguably 2:
1) Oath Gauge can be spent on Holy Shelton (generally used if you have agro) or Cover (generally used if you don't have agro) - mutually exclusive use cases.
2) Mana can be spent on Clemency (large self-heal or large targeted heal that also heals self for half as much), Holy Spirit (ST that also heals self), or Holy Circle (AOE that also heals self) - Holy Spirit and Holy Circle are mutually exclusive use cases, and using Clemency is generally avoided.

WAR has 1:
1) Beast Gauge can be spent on Fell Cleave (ST) or Decimate (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases. Inner Chaos and Chaotic Cyclone are just replacement skills during Nascent Chaos - they're basically just Fell Cleave and Decimate still but hit harder.

DRK has 1, arguably 2:
1) Blood Gauge can be spent on Bloodspiller (ST), Quietus (AOE). or Living Shadow (better than Bloodspiller for ST and better than Quietus for AOE, but has a 120s cooldown) - Bloodspiller and Quietus are mutually exclusive use cases, but Living Shadow offers an optimization opportunity (albeit only once every 2 minutes).
2) Mana can be spent on Edge of Shadow (ST), Flood of Shadow (AOE), or The Blackest Night (defensive) - Edge of Shadow and Flood of Shadow are mutually exclusive use cases, but The Blackest Night introduces meaningful decision-making and resource management.

GNB has 1:
1) Cartridges can be spent on Burst Strike (ST), Fated Circle (AOE), the Gnashing Fang combo (better for ST than Burst Strike but has a 30s cooldown - unsure how it compares to Fated Circle in multi-target situations), or Double Down (better than Burst Strike for ST and better than Fated Circle for AOE - unsure about priority compared to the Gnashing Fang combo) - this is a relatively complex gauge that I'm not an expert on, so hopefully someone else can chime in here. In ST, prioritizing Gnashing Fang over Burst Strike is an optimization opportunity (albeit only once every 30s), and likewise, in ST, Double Down provides an optimization opportunity over Burst Strike despite costing 2 cartridges instead of 1 (albeit only once a minute). In AOE, Double Down is an optimization over Fated Circle despite costing 2 cartridges instead of 1 (albeit only once a minute). I'm unsure what the optimization is between the Gnashing Fang combo and Double Down for ST given their differing costs and the fact that one is a combo and the other is a single GCD. I'm also unsure what the optimization is between the Gnashing Fang combo and Fated Circle in multi-target situations. That said, the fact that those optimizations aren't immediately apparently puts the nuance of the cartridge job gauge far beyond most, even without fully comprehending it.



WHM has 2:
1) Lilies can be spent on Afflatus Solace (ST heal) or Afflatus Rapture (AOE heal) - mutually exclusive use cases.
2) Blood Lily can only be spent on Afflatus Misery - no choice at all.

SCH has 2:
1) Aetherflow can be spent on Energy Drain (ST dps and small self-heal), Lustrate (ST heal), Sacred Soil (AOE damage reduction and regen, 30s cooldown), Indomitability (AOE heal, 30s cooldown), or Excogitation (better ST heal than Lustrate, but has a 45s cooldown). This is another job I'm not very familiar with, so if anyone can chime in, that'd be great. Without knowing the job well though, these abilities appear to be mutually exclusive use cases with the exception of Excogitation being an optimization opportunity compared to Lustrate (albeit on a 45s cooldown).
2) Faerie Gauge can only be spent on Aetherpact - no choice at all.

AST has 1:
1) Astrosigns can only be spent on Astrodyne - no choice at all, however there is significant consideration that goes into the acquisition of astrosigns even if there's no choice in how to spend them.

SGE has 2:
1) Addersgall can be spent on Druochole (ST heal), Taurochole (better for ST heal than Druochole and also provides damage reduction, but has a 45s cooldown), Ixochole (AOE heal, 30s cooldown), or Kerachole (AOE damage reduction and regen, 30s cooldown) - mutually exclusive use cases. I wouldn't consider Taurochole an optimization opportunity over Druochole because it's better to save the damage reduction for when it's actually useful than to try to optimize for an extra 100 potency that might end up being overhealing anyway.
2) Addersting can only be spent on Toxikon II - no choice at all.

[xAFROx]

I'd extend the matter of gauges being underutilized to all job roles.

SCH only has the healing tether to my knowledge. Can't comment on SGE personally since I haven't tried it yet. WAR seems relatively inoffensive as it currently is. PLD seemed to be lacking any sort of engaging abilities tied to gauge iirc. It only mainly uses Shelton as a main tank and intervention or whatever the name is as an off tank. Cover being tied to the gauge seems a bit weird to me since it still has a really long cooldown, but I suppose that's to ensure it doesn't start to cheese through fight mechanics even easier?

DRG and BLM gauge used to be something actively maintained so it wouldn't fall off, but those have since become traits that auto activate.

RPR gauge seems fine as it builds pretty fast and easily, so no comments on that.

GNB cartridges seems fine for now. With the addition of Double Down, I think it makes sense. Under the typical design of jobs with big aoe buttons, it'll likely receive another multiple cartridge spending single target button next.

As for SAM, I think kenki works fine pre-6.1 but if they intend to keep it the way it is going further, then Meditation should be expanded on.
-On that note, I think expanding the stack count to a minimum of 5 and offering a dedicated Meditation skill button would work well enough as a compromise to all the people debating the idea of Shoha 1 and 2 staying separate vs being combined. A stack of 3 would allow for Shoha 1 and a full stack would allow for Shoha 2 as it already exists needing a target to be used. It would allow for further iteration without increasing the amount of buttons and would make sense thematically, being similar to the way the iaijutsu button works with Sen.

But regarding job resources, many are rather one note currently. More nuance would be appreciated for all of them.

[Ruminous]

At this point, talking about kenki is pointless because we're basically addressing the issues with a now-broken machine of the devs' doing. The job itself either needs its ability to do more with the gauge that isn't relentlessly spamming an ability or slowing down the rate at which kenki is gained. Part of why most of the other gauges work is you don't get the abilities as frequently because their cost to use is higher. Samurai's shinten is different due to its cost, which increases its spammability. It's why we need either a true rework of samurai, or kaiten to be returned.

[cjbeagle]

I'd extend the matter of gauges being underutilized to all job roles.

As you wish!

As for SAM, I think kenki works fine pre-6.1 but if they intend to keep it the way it is going further, then Meditation should be expanded on.

Absolutely agreed - bringing back Kaiten would reintroduce nuance to kenki, and sen already has nuance, so the logical target for iteration is meditation, which currently has none whatsoever - not even the ability to pool it for timing optimization.

At this point, talking about kenki is pointless because we're basically addressing the issues with a now-broken machine of the devs' doing. The job itself either needs its ability to do more with the gauge that isn't relentlessly spamming an ability or slowing down the rate at which kenki is gained. Part of why most of the other gauges work is you don't get the abilities as frequently because their cost to use is higher. Samurai's shinten is different due to its cost, which increases its spammability. It's why we need either a true rework of samurai, or kaiten to be returned.

Half the point of talking about kenki is to illustrate how shallow it is without Kaiten, which bolsters the argument to have Kaiten brought back. I don't think samurai needs a rework, but I do think Kaiten needs to be returned.

I agree that Shinten spam is only egregious because of how often you use it, however even if it was much less frequent, it would still be a boring gauge - better than Shinten spam, sure, but still boring and mindless - just less frequent.

A secondary concern with Shinten being less frequent (assuming Kaiten stays gone) is the impact that would have on samurai's APM, which I'd say is a big part of their job identity.

Kaiten + Shinten provided high APM without feeling tedious because of the variety and situational priority - we need that back - if APM tanks, that'd be another massive blow to the job.

Kenki (and a ton of other job gauges imo) need nuance - Kaiten provided that for samurai, and we need it back, and while they're at it, maybe they could spice up some other jobs as well.

[Ruminous]

Half the point of talking about kenki is to illustrate how shallow it is without Kaiten, which bolsters the argument to have Kaiten brought back. I don't think samurai needs a rework, but I do think Kaiten needs to be returned.

I agree that Shinten spam is only egregious because of how often you use it, however even if it was much less frequent, it would still be a boring gauge - better than Shinten spam, sure, but still boring and mindless - just less frequent.

A secondary concern with Shinten being less frequent (assuming Kaiten stays gone) is the impact that would have on samurai's APM, which I'd say is a big part of their job identity.

Kaiten + Shinten provided high APM without feeling tedious because of the variety and situational priority - we need that back - if APM tanks, that'd be another massive blow to the job.

Kenki (and a ton of other job gauges imo) need nuance - Kaiten provided that for samurai, and we need it back, and while they're at it, maybe they could spice up some other jobs as well.

Part of the reason I've said "rework samurai" is because of kaiten's removal. If the job was reverted to 6.08, then we're back to where we are. The machine works again, we move on. But without kaiten, the job is, as I've said in other threads, a discount half-assed monk that has to spam an oGCD ability because of how its designed. To me, that's the flaw of the job currently. We're sitting on a lack of identity pretending the job has one when it clearly doesn't. So if we're moving forward on the assumption that kaiten wont make a return, something else would need to be done with samurai to give it a different feeling and flow than just "slower monk because easier to balance".

Which, the reason the other classes with gauges work is the rest of the kit is designed to compliment the gauge and the abilities from it aren't very spammable. With samurai, shinten will often be within your top 3 damage dealt over the course of a boss fight simply due to its frequency of use. And for all those people cheering on the kaiten removal because it "removes bloat", it's still the literal same amount of APM for a lesser desired result, and now you just look like a jackass stabbing everything in an overhead face stab with a katana, a sword not explicitly made for stabbing. I crept into the visuals of shinten, but point is, what we have currently with 6.1 and the kenki gauge is a problem that spawned because of the loss of kaiten. Which again, as I've stated before, necessitates a full rework of samurai. Otherwise, well, enjoy your braindead easy class I guess?

[VentVanitas]

I would love to see the melee job gauges be less homogenized. I have been for years screaming about how terribly designed MNK's Chakra is, and every time I see someone talk about the job and pretend like it isn't an issue makes me die more on the inside every day.

[cjbeagle]

Part of the reason I've said "rework samurai" is because of kaiten's removal. If the job was reverted to 6.08, then we're back to where we are. The machine works again, we move on. But without kaiten, the job is, as I've said in other threads, a discount half-assed monk that has to spam an oGCD ability because of how its designed. To me, that's the flaw of the job currently. We're sitting on a lack of identity pretending the job has one when it clearly doesn't. So if we're moving forward on the assumption that kaiten wont make a return, something else would need to be done with samurai to give it a different feeling and flow than just "slower monk because easier to balance".

Ah, I see - with that clarification, I agree 100%!

[cjbeagle]

I would love to see the melee job gauges be less homogenized. I have been for years screaming about how terribly designed MNK's Chakra is, and every time I see someone talk about the job and pretend like it isn't an issue makes me die more on the inside every day.

Just based on the storyline I would expect MNK to have 7 light chakra and 7 dark chakra...I have no idea how they ended up with 5 of one color instead of 7 of two colors each.

I totally agree with you though - imo it's the worst job gauge in the entire game if for no other reason than because you have no control over timing.

You don't control how fast it builds up, and once you fill it up you have to use it immediately because you can't hold more than cost of use, leaving little room for skill expression - just "use it as soon you can", which makes it basically just a cooldown in terms of use, except worse because the timer is variable, obfuscated, and stops ticking during downtime.

[Ruminous]

Lastly, because this is the thing that's often not discussed and I just remembered it, a majority of samurai's problems stemmed from their rng system of hits. You can do four types of hits: hit, direct hit, critical hit, direct critical hit. That is a lot of rng. Quite a bit, in fact. Why do #2 and #4 exist at all? Yeah, I love the big numbers too, but this is the real problem and why samurai got a lot of its potency cut out from it is because of this system. As well as spawning other problems down the road too. So...Critical hit as a stat is a major concern as well given that it double dips (adds % chance and % damage) with the more you got...Which makes it the king of stats for nearly everyone out there. Many gear best in slots are often about how much crit you can stack without tanking everything too much, or just going hard on crit and not caring about other stats.

So, I think the removal of direct hit/direct critical hits would help curve out a lot of the massive variance in damage. Heaven's Eye materia, with direct hit being removed, could be repurposed to increase ability based damage (not GCD actions), or something. I hadn't quite thought that one through currently but the point still stands, four flavors of damage and how critical hit as a stat works is the true culprit here.

[cjbeagle]

Lastly, because this is the thing that's often not discussed and I just remembered it, a majority of samurai's problems stemmed from their rng system of hits. You can do four types of hits: hit, direct hit, critical hit, direct critical hit. That is a lot of rng. Quite a bit, in fact. Why do #2 and #4 exist at all? Yeah, I love the big numbers too, but this is the real problem and why samurai got a lot of its potency cut out from it is because of this system. As well as spawning other problems down the road too. So...Critical hit as a stat is a major concern as well given that it double dips (adds % chance and % damage) with the more you got...Which makes it the king of stats for nearly everyone out there. Many gear best in slots are often about how much crit you can stack without tanking everything too much, or just going hard on crit and not caring about other stats.

So, I think the removal of direct hit/direct critical hits would help curve out a lot of the massive variance in damage. Heaven's Eye materia, with direct hit being removed, could be repurposed to increase ability based damage (not GCD actions), or something. I hadn't quite thought that one through currently but the point still stands, four flavors of damage and how critical hit as a stat works is the true culprit here.

Ah, again, I just remembered. Before you add stats to anything, hit/direct hit/critical hit/direct critical hit translates to 1x, 1.3x, 1.5x, and 2x the damage of the ability in question. Quite a lot of variance, innit?

Slight correction, but direct is 1.25x, and the crit multiplier varies based on your rating - if I remember right it's 1.4x with 0 rating from gear and is around 1.6x with good gear (but 1.4x * 1.6x is still 2x for direct crit).

Regardless though, I still think their crusade against variance is totally misguided. I know you were in the thread where this is from, but for those who weren't, here's some fun math from a thread where we were talking about Midare crit variance:

Let's consider 6.08 crit variance of Midare using some hypothetical, but reasonable stats.

Let's say a fight takes 10 minutes.
Let's say you Midare once every 12s on average (taking skill speed, Meikyo Shisui, and Tsubame-gaeshi into account)
Let's say you have a 30% chance to crit.
Let's say your non-crit Midares hit for 25k.
Let's say your crit Midares hit for 40k. (+60% modifier)

If you Midare every 12s on average for 10m, that's 50 Midares for the entire fight.

Worst case scenario, you get 0 crits with Midare and do 1,250,000 damage with Midare over the course of 10m, which is 2,083 dps.

Best case scenario, you get 50 crits with Midare and do 2,000,000 damage with Midare over the course of 10m, which is 3,333 dps.

Now, 1.3k dps is nothing to scoff at, but:

- the chance of actually getting 0 crits out of 50 swings with a 30% crit chance is .0000000179846504%.

- the chance of actually getting 50 crits out of 50 swings with a 30% crit chance is .00000000000000000000000000717897988%.



Now let's look some possibilities that are more reasonable:

Let's say for a "lucky" clear, you crit 40% of the time despite only having a 30% crit chance - I think we'd all agree that'd be pretty splendid.

Likewise, let's say for an "unlucky" clear, you crit 20% of the time despite having a 30% crit chance - I think we'd all agree that'd be pretty dismal.

The fight you crit 40% of the time you'd do 1,550,000 damage with Midare over the course of 10m, which is 2,583 dps.

The fight you crit 20% of the time, you'd do 1,400,000 damage with Midare over the course of 10m, which is 2,333 dps.

Call me crazy, but imo their obsession with mitigating crit variance is completely unnecessary if great luck vs terrible luck only amounts to 250 dps.