Sharlayan origins and the Endwalker Trailer

[Theodric]

I mean you do realize that Shadowbringers is pretty much all about how the Ascians' worldview is flawed, right? Even if you regard Hydaelyn negatively, preventing calamity is still the act of saving countless people, the fact that someone's soul becomes a little bit denser doesn't change the fact that millions of people died to make that happen. To "lay the truth of the world bare", it's genocide. Plain and simple.

You're free to read it as such if you so choose, though that isn't the default assumption nor is anybody obligated to read into it as such. It was framed as a battle of like wills between two heroes each shouldering the burdens of their respective people. They could not reach a compromise due to opposing goals coming at the expense of each other's people, though such is common in times of war and strife.

I think it's worth bringing this up again:

I do believe that this should add further clarification on the subject when it comes to the intent of the writers, especially the last paragraph:

Q: With each new expansion new themes are introduced and are focused on. How does the team decide on which themes to focus on with each new expansion?

Naoki Yoshida: The major themes for the expansion would be first conveyed from me as the game’s director to the development team. Although it is somewhat difficult to describe my personal decision-making process it could be summarised as [requiring a sense of] surprise and fun. This contains a dual meaning in that I assess whether as developers ourselves we would encounter surprises while enjoying the production process, at the same time as considering whether the story of the expansion would be exciting and fun for the players. In the last expansion Shadowbringers, I had thought that players must have grown tired of being referred to as a Warrior of Light. I also came up with the idea of reversing the conventional notion of light equating to justice or something holy and darkness equating to evil or something bad to generate a sense of surprise.

The current state of global affairs is incredibly complex and simple two-dimensional theories of good/bad from ancient times can no longer quantify this world we live in. As such, a large factor [that contributed to the selection of these themes] is that I thought I could cultivate new values and a new sense of realisation within myself by changing perspective and carefully considering the other party’s arguments in regard to a given event. Half of the time these things are born from one’s intuition and flashes of inspiration. I guessed as much but it really is hard to explain. (laughs)

Source:https://www.impulsegamer.com/naoki-y...vs-lore-story/

[Lauront]

And another...

DAILY STAR - Talking of the story, what was your personal favourite while going through the expansion?

Yoshida - That’s a tough question, being in the development team, I’m involved with lots of adjustment and tweaking during creations, so I see all the cut-scenes and while in development I give feedback on if a cut-scene should be bringing up the tension in certain parts. I had to play Shadowbringers four times, so it’s hard to have one favourite part.

If I needed to pick one, there is a scene after you complete a dungeon in a cave where you see the murals that is the dream that the ancients saw which is about the war between Hydaelyn and Zodiark. Emet-Selch takes the whole party to the cave and talks about the war and Y’sthola, and other NPCs were surprised by his revelation about what had happened. This struck really hard to me.

This scene is really underlining the story of Shadowbringers. Everyone is in a different position, the view of winners will be different to those that have lost, and the truth that they may tell will also be different. There is not really any point in arguing who is right or wrong but what is really important is to understand that there are so many views, and we need to accept it; how can we move forward by us understanding each other.

That was more just for Shadowbringers, but it’s also a common theme through Eorzea and FFXIV. What Emet-Selch was expressing is his view that ‘this is my opinion not requiring approval from anyone because this is what I believe’. He doesn’t even reject what Haydelin is saying, he just accepts it. What he expressed in that scene was ‘how great ancients are and the deep understanding they have with people who have different opinions to themselves.

Source.

[Rulakir]

Because the Ancients weren't the only people sundered? There was also the new life that was created after the laws of the star were rewritten, brand new souls that were created from seemingly nothing.

I wouldn't know where to begin to backtrack to in order to double check this, so all I'll say is that isn't how I understood the story. I was led to believe only Ancients have immortal souls capable of reincarnation and the 'new life' return to the aether upon death to be fashioned into something new. Combined with the emotional reactions of characters without the Echo to the star shower and I reasoned it's possible to be a sundered Ancient without the Echo. I'm open to evidence that states otherwise, but that's where my mind is on that point.

[Elladie]

Kinda stepping back from this whole thing, I'm always wondering how much of the 'Hydaelyn was definitely A Bad Guy and did Bad Things and needs to die' is just people who really want to punch out the biggest figure in the setting. Or perhaps not even 'want to', just 'expect to'.

This has been a thought around my head ever since I first started becoming aware of the theory at all; I think the prime motivation is less genuinely thinking that she's a bad guy that we should fight, and more that because we're in a medium where violence is the primary means of interaction, that a figure like Hydaelyn is ultimately something that we can and will fight, and so there must be a justification for doing so, we just have to find it. I've always felt that's why so many RPGs ultimately have you fight God or Satan (or some analog of such); the writers introduce the cosmology, and people would be mad if they couldn't take a swing at it, so, let's just have it build to that anyway.

I don't even necessarily disagree with it in this case, I do think that ultimately there will be a moment that's seen as 'The Hydaelyn Fight', even if it's not literally punching out the blue rock. I just feel like people are starting at what they think is an inevitability and trying to backtrack to a moral justification.

I know I've never trusted Hydaelyn since the Praetorium and its aftermath, because I started noticing that she always gave orders, she never asked nicely. And, personal bias, I'm naturally suspicious of deities.

After the Antitower it seemed clear to me that Hydaelyn took Minfilia as a vessel because she needed her; to my mind it felt that Minfilia wasn't given a choice. That got my back up. But I loathed the Ascians and I wasn't overfond of the Garleans either so I didn't jump out of Camp Hydaelyn, I just started to be wary that I was being used.

Everything in ShB convinced me that Hydaelyn is absolutely no better than Zodiark as an option - a creature that tempers you, even just lightly, is not to be trusted.

I feel like the message is a bit 'Gaius' in the end - gods are just creations we imbue with power by worshipping them, and we kind of need to stop it. Hopefully in EW we deal with both Hy and big Z (and somehow save the world too)

[Cilia]

Some fans are just particularly passionate about the game. There's nothing mentally deficient about that; they're just very invested in the story. Players identify with characters like them, they get attached to other characters, etc. Saying "it doesn't matter because it's fiction" comes across as callous, and saying things like "they care too much" or "are incapable of separating fiction from reality" is just flat-out insulting. I don't think passionate fans being passionate about their pastime is wrong or bad, or a sign of mental impairment.

Why does VII's Cloud enjoy such enduring popularity? Why do people care so much about what happens to him? He's just a fictional character.

I mean you do realize that Shadowbringers is pretty much all about how the Ascians' worldview is flawed, right? Even if you regard Hydaelyn negatively, preventing calamity is still the act of saving countless people, the fact that someone's soul becomes a little bit denser doesn't change the fact that millions of people died to make that happen. To "lay the truth of the world bare", it's genocide. Plain and simple.

I don't think it was about "laying the truth of the world bare" or "how the Ascians' worldview is flawed," rather it was about trying to understand people who are different from you. We didn't understand the Ascians' motives, only their goals, and found out they had very understandable reasons for the things they do.

Everybody ultimately wants to create the best future, but their vision for that future is different. Unfortunately not all differences can be reconciled, and understanding others isn't the same thing as agreeing with them.

[Lauront]

I'm curious, where did you get the idea that anyone was attributing such an inability to a mental deficiency or mental impairment? Certainly not what I was driving at.

As to the rest? Being passionate about a fiction is not the issue - it is when that passion turns into zeal and tone/morality policing what people should think of a story, what they should like and what viewpoint the should ascribe to - in the end, we all have our own preferences on the trajectory of the story and yes, it is useful to keep in perspective that it is nonetheless fiction in the end.


In any case, disagreements aside, I hope everyone enjoys the expansion.

I wouldn't know where to begin to backtrack to in order to double check this, so all I'll say is that isn't how I understood the story. I was led to believe only Ancients have immortal souls capable of reincarnation and the 'new life' return to the aether upon death to be fashioned into something new. Combined with the emotional reactions of characters without the Echo to the star shower and I reasoned it's possible to be a sundered Ancient without the Echo. I'm open to evidence that states otherwise, but that's where my mind is on that point.

It's unclear at present. Suffice it to say that souls that were not in a position to witness the crisis gripping the star would probably be unaffected by a vision of the Final Days, or at least that of falling stars, but what the status of the new souls was etc. has all been kept very vague.

[SentioftheHoukai]

I also get the impression that the more ardent Hydaelyn defenders feel as if their sense of morality or life choices are being attacked, which is odd. We're discussing a fictional universe that exists in an unnatural state where reincarnation is confirmed. Real life rules don't exactly apply.

I've never liked Hydaelyn starting from the intro to ARR. It has absolutely nothing to do with discoveries made in ShB (although those made it exponentially worse), I've always found her unsetttling and that was continuously exacerbated through Minfilia. The only interest I'd have in fighting her is if it means my WoL will finally be free of her. Whatever issues anyone has with Ascians doesn't make Hydaelyn any more worthy to follow. I don't consider choosing one wrong to fight against another a good choice and clearly neither did Azem back in the day.

Yepperooni's this right here ^^^ always stuck out to me. If we didn't choose to support Hydaelyn (or Zodiark, I remember), why is the Warrior of Light suddenly her devoted and loving son/daughter now?! It positively reeks of "Hydaelyn swooped up a new, malleable champion the moment they left the Lifestream to me. Yeah, I know it's just a head-canon of mine. But it's still suspicious as hell.

[Cleretic]

If we don't end up getting a Hydaelyn heel turn in EW, take note that we don't definitively know this statement is true. The specific quote from 5.2 is "I had hoped the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report out overtures have gone unanswered." It's always stuck out to me that they specifically said 'unanswered' instead of some form of 'denied' because we have no information on Azem's status or whereabouts after resigning from the Convocation. It's possible they went to deal with the Sound directly or any other manner of things occurred that would have prevented them from responding to Venat's group one way or the other. And that's not to say that they would have been pro-Hydaelyn in any case; just that there is so much we don't know yet about the time between Zodiark being summoned and the meeting of Venat's group.

A minor clarification: We know that the resignation was before the summoning of Zodiark, but we do have a single note of Azem still being around afterwards. The second Emet-Selch Tales from the Shadows story is explicitly set after the first summoning of Zodiark (it's outright mentioned this is after Elidibus came back down), but it does show that Azem is still around and doing things, that's when they're stopping the volcano.

That doesn't tell us much, but it does say that Azem didn't die in the End of Days, at least.

[MikkoAkure]

A minor clarification: We know that the resignation was before the summoning of Zodiark, but we do have a single note of Azem still being around afterwards. The second Emet-Selch Tales from the Shadows story is explicitly set after the first summoning of Zodiark (it's outright mentioned this is after Elidibus came back down), but it does show that Azem is still around and doing things, that's when they're stopping the volcano.

That doesn't tell us much, but it does say that Azem didn't die in the End of Days, at least.

The part with the volcano is set before Zodiark was summoned. Then he talks about what happened after as a separate event and the next part is after Zodiark. The point of the volcano story was to describe how Elidibus was before he was made part of Zodiark.

[Cleretic]

The part with the volcano is set before Zodiark was summoned. Then he talks about what happened after as a separate event and the next part is after Zodiark. The point of the volcano story was to describe how Elidibus was before he was made part of Zodiark.

Huh! Misread, then. My bad!

In my defense--and admittedly it's a very weak one--that story is sort of a perfect storm of details I'll gloss over. Emet-Selch, Azem and Elidibus (at least, pre-Sundering; Elidibus I kinda liked in most of his patch MSQ stories) are all story presences I'm not a big fan of, so I don't exactly enjoy the experience of reading that story.

...although now I'm kinda worried how much of the community also misread that one. Because I've brought that reading up... a lot over the past few months, and you're the only person that's ever actually pointed that out.