Assize should have second charge

[WaxSw]

The moment someone says, "I use Assize for damage" they would immediately be ruled out of the hearing to determine whether or not WHM actually needs this

Not hearing players because of that, without listening beforehand their arguments and experience, as a dev that would be a big mistake and one of the resons that led us to 1.0

I couldn't care less about your ability to do more damage.

And you would be a bad dev again because by design healers need to use offensive actions to clear the content (solo content for example) as well as having content in high end designed with their dps in mind, not caring about healer's dps capabilities would be a huge mistake that would led to balance issues between jobs and in the content, not to mention how some people pick jobs based on said capabilities or how by design devs force downtime

I would need to know why you feel WHM also needs to have another charge for those resources (MP and HP restoration)

Because its supposed competition Ast has way more free healing capabilities and with the mp nerfs Whm has one of the worse mp restoration among healers + that if the tool is meant to be used as "heal only" the fact that most if not all whm use it for damage shows that its design its not fulfilling its purpose.

then why it should come in the form of a second charge instead of just increasing how much it returns

Because a second charge would increase it flexibility, allowing players to use it both as a dps action and as a heal instead of a dps action only, something that a dps/hp/mp increase woudnt solve at all.

If their intention is for assize to be a ogcd heal, the second charge allows it to efficiently be one, if they want a hybrid, a second charge would allow to both uses to coexist, if they want it as a damage cooldown 2 charges would allow Whm to fit better in their 1-2m burst design, only 1 charge with higher returns would only allow for its efficient use to be used as a dps/mp and with a 45s cd it would align worse with the 1-2m burst design.

I would probably ask why you feel Assize needs to cause damage at all

Because its a skill that was introduced when healers still had moderately well designed and fun kits and if they removed the damage Whm would lean even further to the glarebot playstyle and losing a bunch of whm mains in the way, in a role that what needs the least is to lose even more experienced people.

[Gemina]

I chose to attack because you opened with about as pigheaded and stupid a comment as is possible:

You chose to attack because you're bitter, and can't actually answer my inquiry. That is after all, when anonymous internet warriors such as yourself go on the offensive.

Ruling out an improvement to an ability that would allow someone to actually use it for something other than damage because you don't like the fact that they are currently using it for damage......

I ruled it out because causing more damage is not a viable reason to give it 2 charges. Don't even say it will improve clear rates on relevant savage turns, and then tell me this...

Backwards thinking 101.

Oh give me a break. This is just high and mighty rubbish. I've explained in far too much depth why this is a beneficial move to allow Assize to actually offer value as a healing ability rather than getting pressured into being spammed on cooldown for MP and damage in it's current form. Did you read any of that? Good job indeed.

Call it what you wish. I am still waiting why Assize should get two charges. If you can think of something other than "muh deeps". I am all ears. I also can't think of any reason why you would want the additional charge for healing purposes either. MP? Possibly. But again, I can take care of that by increasing those potencies. I wouldn't have to give you another charge at all.

[lisaa]

Oh give me a break. This is just high and mighty rubbish. I've explained in far too much depth why this is a beneficial move to allow Assize to actually offer value as a healing ability rather than getting pressured into being spammed on cooldown for MP and damage in it's current form. Did you read any of that? Good job indeed.

Even if it has charges you will still be pressured to use it for damage in burst windows. It won't change anything except instead of every 45s you have to use it every 60/120s. That is just the flaw of having damage on healers. If it has damage you will always be forced to use it for dps

[Sebazy]

You chose to attack because you're bitter, and can't actually answer my inquiry. That is after all, when anonymous internet warriors such as yourself go on the offensive.

Nono, I go on the offensive when people rebuke interesting suggestions for completely inane reasons.

I ruled it out because causing more damage is not a viable reason to give it 2 charges. Don't even say it will improve clear rates on relevant savage turns, and then tell me this...

What?

Adding a second charge would be a great move as it'd help make assize quite a lot more flexible and versatile.

Sitting on a charge to use for as a healing oGCD wouldn't be a significant MP & DPS loss anymore (something which EW is going to make even more important).

It'd also allow WHMs to dump charges during DPS windows to help them keep up with the other healers a little better.

Sure, I mention that it'll be a minor boost to DPS through being able to better align it with raid buffs, but that's merely a foot note. The real gain here is that it'll allow a WHM to sit on a charge for up to 45 seconds offering the ability to align it with raidwide AoEs. Just imagine. Being able to actually use Assize as a HEAL without shooting yourself in the foot for MP and raid damage contribution. Put your hatred of any healer that dares to value their DPS aside for just a moment and soak that in. Assize.... As a legitimate powerful heal..... Whoa man

(Backwards thinking 101 tho).

Call it what you wish. I am still waiting why Assize should get two charges. If you can think of something other than "muh deeps". I am all ears. I also can't think of any reason why you would want the additional charge for healing purposes either. MP? Possibly. But again, I can take care of that by increasing those potencies. I wouldn't have to give you another charge at all.

If you took a few moments to actually go through the thread that you're mindlessly trying to debunk. You'd find that I've put my very reasons down multiple times already:

help make assize quite a lot more flexible and versatile.

Sitting on a charge to use for as a healing oGCD wouldn't be a significant MP & DPS loss anymore

Let's say the fight has a big raid wide AoE 1 minute into the fight. 2 charges will allow you to stall your next assize for the extra 15 seconds potentially allowing you to keep Asylum in your pocket for the next raid wide.

The strength of this is in allowing a WHM to actually try and get value out of the healing portion of Assize rather than it just being a 45 second dps+mp oGCD.

TLDR: The core point of the charge is to allow WHMs to push an Assize cast back up to 45 seconds without costing themselves MP or raid damage.

Sure you can bump up potencies and values instead but you're a rubbish developer if that's all you are willing to do.

[Sebazy]

Even if it has charges you will still be pressured to use it for damage in burst windows. It won't change anything except instead of every 45s you have to use it every 60/120s. That is just the flaw of having damage on healers. If it has damage you will always be forced to use it for dps

That's a fair stance and a good point. However if you put it on a timeline, trying to ensure you have 2 charges for each trick window doesn't work out as well as you might think. In fact I suspect it'd be a net loss to do just that.

A) If you throw one Assize on pull to get the cooldown ticking immediately:
0:00 - Opener - With 1st Assize right on the pull
0:10 - Trick 1 - Single Assize here
0:45 - Charge 1 **
1:30 - Charge 2 ++ - You have to have burned an extra cast around this point or you're losing MP and DPS
2:10 - Trick 2 - ++Double Assize++
2:15 - Charge 3 ++
3:00 - Charge 4 **
3:45 - Charge 5 ++
4:10 - Trick 3 - Double Assize here would require you to sit with 2 charges for 25 seconds
4:30 - Charge 6 **
5:15 - Charge 7 **
6:00 - Charge 8 ++
6:10 - Trick 4 - Double Assize here would require you to sit with 2 charges for 10 seconds
6:45 - Charge 9 **

B) Vs Assizing once Trick is up.
0:10 - Trick 1 - ++Double Assize++
0:55 - Charge 1 **
1:40 - Charge 2 ++
2:10 - Trick 2 - Double Assize here would require you to sit with 2 charges for 30 seconds unless Trick is slightly late
2:25 - Charge 3 **
3:10 - Charge 4 **
3:55 - Charge 5 ++
4:10 - Trick 3 - Double Assize here would require you to sit with 2 charges for 15 seconds.
4:40 - Charge 6 **
5:25 - Charge 7 ++
6:10 - Charge 8 ++
6:10 - Trick 4 - **Double Assize**
6:45 - Charge 9 **

(** = An Assize charge that is free to be used whenever within it's 45 second window - ++ = An Assize charge that you'd be hoarding for the next Trick window).

Obviously, this is somewhat rough numbers and of course forced disconnects or intermissions will probably throw this whole theory to the wind.

As the brief timelines hopefully show, regardless of which opener you go with, it's not really possible to align 2 Assizes with every trick window without sitting on 2 charges for anywhere from 15 to 30 seconds in these examples. So even if you're absolutely min maxing your damage, having 2 charges still gives you spare Assizes with which to do with as you please. My napkin theory suggests to me that you'll only be able to align a double assize with 1 out of 3 trick attacks in a fight unless I'm mistaken? Even in full logs mode, that still leaves a healthy number of charges on the side.

Thus stalling a charge to align it with a raid wide doesn't entail a DPS hit whatsoever as long as you don't allow yourself to end up with 2 charges outside of the opener.

Again, I think this is one of the best suggestions for a WHM buff that's been put forward in a while. It's not game changing, it's not super powerful, it's not going to break the meta. But it just takes a great ability and allows it to be more useful, likely in a manner more akin to what the developers originally intended.

[Nizzi]

Even if it has charges you will still be pressured to use it for damage in burst windows. It won't change anything except instead of every 45s you have to use it every 60/120s. That is just the flaw of having damage on healers. If it has damage you will always be forced to use it for dps

Sure, if you're in a purely "chasing parses and total optimization" setting; it's the same how Aetherflow usage technically "pressures" you to use it entirely on Energy Drain and never on healing. In reality, Sacred Soil and the odd Excog/Indom while Recitation is on CD are more helpful than using a full stack solely on Energy Drain. Having Assize on two charges would have the freedom of being able to use it on DPS and keep a charge for back up healing, in the same way that a lot of Scholars will hold onto one or two stacks of Aetherflow until dumping them before Aetherflow is off CD.
If the design of healers is to allow them to be as forgiving to new players as possible, we shouldn't say that something would be "forced" and therefore would not be a good change because it would be optimal in a raid setting to use it solely on DPS. I don't think that this is a good argument for why it shouldn't be allowed to have two charges, especially when that most healers in most levels of content already are more concerned with keeping people alive than doing "optimal" DPS. As far as I'm aware, this would only be a positive change across the board for White Mage players.

[Sebazy]

Sure, if you're in a purely "chasing parses and total optimization" setting

Just to clarify, this isn't actually the case. As my crunching above hopefully shows (And hopefully I've not goofed on it!), even in full min max 'but muh logs' mode, you still get between 1 and 2 totally free Assize charges every 2 minutes that can't be aligned with raid buffs but can still be shifted around to hopefully line up with something else instead.

[Sebazy]

I ruled it out because causing more damage is not a viable reason to give it 2 charges

If you can think of something other than "muh deeps".

In an effort to try and get this discussion back on track, here's a genuine question, you do understand that having 2 charges doesn't mean you get to cast it twice every 45 seconds right? Your focus on the damage side of things has me wondering if you're misunderstanding what's being suggested here.

At the risk of greatly over simplifying things, this would mean that a WHM would get 1 extra Assize in across an entire Trial, Savage or Dungeon. The only situation in which it would likely offer more of a gain would be either a dungeon with an inordinately long run between pulls (aka something like Praetorium) or a Savage/Trial with an especially long cutscene right in the middle of it (E8S is probably the best culprit here).

As my math in my prior post hopefully shows, aligning double assizes with raid buff windows won't actually work out that well to the extent where trying to hoard charges to double assize every trick would likely be a net loss.

So as stated before, the big win isn't that you get an extra Assize. But rather it allows you to use your charges within a 45 second window rather than being pressured into mashing it mindlessly on cooldown for the sake of MP and damage.

It makes the ability more interesting, more versatile and more useful.

I simply don't understand why you are hating on it in the way that you are.

[lisaa]

I see. Personally I hate charges because its a pain to think about and prefer to easily just press every x seconds but I can see why others would like this

[Grimoire-M]

I simply don't understand why you are hating on it in the way that you are.

Best I can figure they’re implying that you should just hold the current iteration if spamming it makes healing uncomfortable. Which ignores that it is ultimately more effective to plan healing around Assize being spammed rather than treat it as a regular healing resource in its current iteration. It’s not -just- a healing resource. And focusing on the MP and DPS gains for spamming it on cooldown are more rewarding than they are giving credit to.

Just as an example of this, let’s look at SCH’s Energy Drain. In order for holding Assize to be worth more than it, you have to hold it for less than 11.25 seconds. If that Energy Drain can go to an Indom or Soil instead and you have to hold it for longer, then Assize is better off being spent then and there. From this we can assume that Sage will just deal with it since there’s no reason not to, Meanwhile AST’s new Star can throw a wrench in this but with WHM/AST being a non-standard pairing now we’re less likely to see this. Ultimately you just use both as many times as you can get away with and let the AST worry about the drift later.