Assize should have second charge

[Silver-Strider]

I mean sure, but this just adds said bloat for no real gain over simply adding the second charge? The charge angle is just so much more elegant IMO.



I get the feeling you're approaching it from the angle that the WHM is going to be bottomed out on MP by the time that the 3rd Assize rolls round? That's not really going to be the case in any reasonable situation. Either that or your misunderstanding the main benefit in that the cooldown will keep ticking down whilst you sit on 1 of the 2 charges.

Rather the beauty is that right now, if Assize isn't on cooldown, as you say, you're leaving DPS and MP on the table.

With 2 charges, you can have assize ready to cast but still have the second charge ticking round off cooldown. So in your example, you blow both charges in the opener. Let's say the fight has a big raid wide AoE 1 minute into the fight. 2 charges will allow you to stall your next assize for the extra 15 seconds potentially allowing you to keep Asylum in your pocket for the next raid wide.

Remember that the entire point of 2 charges is that you don't have to blow the first charge on cooldown. That timer will still be ticking round for the second charge whilst you have the 1st banked for up to 45 seconds. On a fight like E12S this would be a huge boon for WHM IMHO.

The emphasis here is that until you are either flatlined on MP or the fight is about to end, there's no penalty for sitting on 1 charge and stalling it to align with either adds or some healing requirement. There's no need to keep both charges on CD right from your opener. If anything, doing that would be counter productive if you want to try and get 2 casts in with subsequent raid buff windows.

*edit* Holy moly that post reads badly sorry

I'm looking at the extra stack of Assize and considering all the possible issues that can occur. I'm greatly concerned that WHM will be flatlining on its MP due to the Thin Air nerf and while having a 2nd stack of Assize means we can delay needing to use a GCD heal by saving Assize for healing purposes, will we be able to delay needing that 5% MP restore? All the theories so far have accounted for Assize being used on CD and still WHM comes out dry in a little over 7 minutes so would a 2nd charge really help that much when it would only really be 1-2 extra uses in those fights? Then, we also need to consider how a 2nd stack of Assize could potentially affect the balance between Healers in terms of damage. If MP isn't found to be an issue or is adjusted to be a non-issue again, would a 2nd stack of Assize, on top of the potency increase to Glare, put WHM at too much of an advantage over AST/SCH/SGE in terms of DPS, however unlikely that is to be?

I just don't see a 2nd charge of Assize being the right solution to the problem is all.

[Sebazy]

<snip>

I suppose it'll depend on the fight really. In something like E8S where raid wide damage is so infrequent that you'll have a surplus of oGCDs on tap then no, it won't make a difference at all.

For something like E12S where in more mainstream play, a WHM is likely to be forced to use Medica II, it'll be of much more value.

Again, it's not about allowing more uses of Assize, for the most part, it'll allow 1 more cast and that's it. But that's not the point here. Nor is it correct to assume that a WHM is going to be permanently out of MP. This isn't the fix that's needed to address that. The strength of this is in allowing a WHM to actually try and get value out of the healing portion of Assize rather than it just being a 45 second dps+mp oGCD.

Fixing the MP thing is going to need something else. But writing this off because it doesn't tackle that specific issue seems backwards to me? It's strikes me as a nice addition to a signature WHM ability.

[Liam_Harper]

I don't get where people are saying it's a dps and mana loss to hold a charge.

Since you'll never let it cap at 2 charges, you blow the first and use the second charge regularly in one of two situations. Either for healing or when you're close to capping charges again. Your mana income over the fight is the same, because you use it the same number of times.

Realistically, what would a second charge do? You blow the 1st on damage and hold the 2nd for an AoE damage to utilize the heal. Guess what? You are now out of charges and are right back to square 1 where you are blowing Assize on CD because Damage/MP.

Why?

In your situation, you're out of charges. It's on cooldown, like any heal cd. When the first charge comes back, why wouldn't you continue to treat it as a heal cooldown? Once that first charge comes back, you still have 45 seconds leeway where you can hold it ready for healing without losing a use that fight. If those 45 seconds are nearly up and you're about to be back at 2 charges, you blow one for dps, then still have 1 charge that you can continue to hold ready for healing.
Near the end of the fight you empty all your charges. No uses lost, because you never let it cap.
Also keep in mind this will be a gain in situations where Assize would normally come off cooldown during a boss intermission. You blow all charges before the intermission, it comes off cooldown mid way, but then you get another 45 sec where it charges and stocks the second one.

With 2 charges, if you use your last charge of Assize to heal, the next raidwide can be up to 1:30 away and you could still heal with it again. There could even be situations where a raidwide happens when you're not far off 2 charges, you use Assize to heal (dropping to 0 charges), then 1 charge refreshes before the next raidwide and you Assize again for a total of 800 potency raid healing. That's a nice gain for WHM. It's win-win really.

[Silver-Strider]

I don't get where people are saying it's a dps and mana loss to hold a charge.

Since you'll never let it cap at 2 charges, you blow the first and use the second charge regularly in one of two situations. Either for healing or when you're close to capping charges again. Your mana income over the fight is the same, because you use it the same number of times.



Why?

In your situation, you're out of charges. It's on cooldown, like any heal cd. When the first charge comes back, why wouldn't you continue to treat it as a heal cooldown? Once that first charge comes back, you still have 45 seconds leeway where you can hold it ready for healing without losing a use that fight. If those 45 seconds are nearly up and you're about to be back at 2 charges, you blow one for dps, then still have 1 charge that you can continue to hold ready for healing.
Near the end of the fight you empty all your charges. No uses lost, because you never let it cap.
Also keep in mind this will be a gain in situations where Assize would normally come off cooldown during a boss intermission. You blow all charges before the intermission, it comes off cooldown mid way, but then you get another 45 sec where it charges and stocks the second one.

With 2 charges, if you use your last charge of Assize to heal, the next raidwide can be up to 1:30 away and you could still heal with it again. There could even be situations where a raidwide happens when you're not far off 2 charges, you use Assize to heal (dropping to 0 charges), then 1 charge refreshes before the next raidwide and you Assize again for a total of 800 potency raid healing. That's a nice gain for WHM. It's win-win really.

I'm going off the mentality of keeping Assize on CD because of the MP restore, which could be a problem for WHM come EW. Being able to delay it for healing purposes would be helpful and I do admit to overreacting in my original post but I do feel that, unless something else is done to alleviate MP for WHM, a 2nd charge might not be able to serve its intended purpose of being used for healing.

[Liam_Harper]

I'm going off the mentality of keeping Assize on CD because of the MP restore, which could be a problem for WHM come EW. Being able to delay it for healing purposes would be helpful and I do admit to overreacting in my original post but I do feel that, unless something else is done to alleviate MP for WHM, a 2nd charge might not be able to serve its intended purpose of being used for healing.

Remember you aren't delaying overall usages, just when you use the second charge. As long as it doesn't cap at 2 charges, you don't lose any uses. For example currently in a 5 minute fight, you'd get 6 Assize uses. If it had 2 charges and you blew one at the start of the fight, then held and used the spare for healing (and used all charges before the boss died, you'd get 7 usages. So the charge system works out at a minor mana increase.

If in emergency you somehow ran out of MP entirely, you're still free to pop your spare charge you've been holding, for MP recovery. For example if you died, got raised and need to clutch recover the run. Without charges you might not have have that luxury since you blow it on cd for dps and don't have any spare charge. With charges you still have your spare 400 potency heal with free mana that you've been keeping handy.

Simple. Whenever I use it, it does damage and gives me mp. As for the healing, I don't care if I don't use the skill instantly. You may have seen other posts I've made. In which case you'd know I could not care less about optimization of my dps as I play FF14, not spreadsheet simulator.

That's fine, it's not mandatory to optimize. But technically speaking you aren't getting full value from Assize and even just admitted you don't care if you do or not. You either sacrifice dps by not using it instantly, or healing, by using it instantly. Whichever way you play, you lose something.

[Valmaxian]

This is a great idea!

[Adeacia]

That's fine, it's not mandatory to optimize. But technically speaking you aren't getting full value from Assize and even just admitted you don't care if you do or not. You either sacrifice dps by not using it instantly, or healing, by using it instantly. Whichever way you play, you lose something.

By full use, I mean the damage, the mp recovery and the healing. Everything the skill can do, I get the use of every time I use it. Hence, full use.

[AnotherPerson]

I'm going off the mentality of keeping Assize on CD because of the MP restore, which could be a problem for WHM come EW. Being able to delay it for healing purposes would be helpful and I do admit to overreacting in my original post but I do feel that, unless something else is done to alleviate MP for WHM, a 2nd charge might not be able to serve its intended purpose of being used for healing.

People are literally saying it's not a fix to MP problem; it just makes the drawbacks of Assize easier to manage by not losing potential MP/damage/healing from not using the skill on cooldown.
You're going to get the same amount of MP restore regardless whether you use it at 1 charge or near 2 charges.

The way Assize with 2 charges work is that you get up to 1000 MP every 90 seconds.

At 0 charge(s) held, in 20 seconds, you have 0 stock of -500 MP- and 0 AoE heal saved up.
At 0 charge(s) held, in 45 seconds, you have 1 stock of -500 MP- and 1 AoE heal saved up, and the counter resets to 0 for the 2nd charge.
At 1 charge(s) held, in 75 seconds (30 seconds on 2nd charge), you still have 1 stock of -500 MP- and 1 AoE heal saved up.
At 1 charge(s) held, in 85 seconds (40 seconds on 2nd charge), you still have 1 stock of -500 MP- and 1 AoE heal saved up.
At 1 charge(s) held, in 90 seconds (45 seconds on 2nd charge), you have 2 stock of -500 MP- and 2 AoE heal saved up, and you hit the cap on charges.
At 2 charge(s) held, in 120 seconds (30 seconds on the 3rd charge), you have 2 stock of -500 MP- and 2 AoE heal saved up, but wasted 30/45 seconds on your 3rd charge.

However... if you use a charge of Assize within 90 seconds, then:

At 1 charge(s) held, in 120 seconds (30 seconds on 3nd charge), you still have 1 stock of -500 MP- and 1 AoE heal saved up.
At 1 charge(s) held, in 135 seconds (45 seconds on 3rd charge), you have 2 stock of -500 MP- and 2 AoE heal saved up, and then you hit cap on charges.

As you can see here, this allows you to delay your Assizes so you can also get the healing benefit of the skill without losing any MP from the skill itself as long as you use it within 90 seconds, and then another 45 seconds as long as you just use a charge within that timeframe, giving it a lot more flexibility. A 400 AOE heal is a free Medica/Afflatus Rapture without any cost, but this time you can actually guarantee it's used for healing within the timeframe.

Compare this to now:
At 0 charge held, in 20 seconds, you have 0 stock of -500 MP- and 0 AoE heal.
At 0 charge held, in 45 seconds, you have 1 stock of -500 MP- and 1 AoE heal.
At 1 charge held, in 75 seconds, you have 1 stock of -500 MP- and 1 AoE Heal, but you wasted 30/45 seconds on the 2nd charge.
At 1 charge held, in 90 seconds, you have 1 stock of -500 MP- and 1 AoE Heal, but you wasted 1 charge of Assize (-500 MP, -400 potency AoE Heal, -400 potency damage).

So you would have to use a charge immediately by 45 seconds and not hold it, or you lose MP, healing, and damage. If everyone is full HP and you use assize by 45 seconds, then you simply waste the healing portion, but you get the damage and MP back.

[Silver-Strider]

Snip

Allow me to clarify my concern.

If EW comes out, and its exactly as we feared with WHM bottoming out of MP in the estimated 7+ minutes time and the only change that occurred was that Assize got a 2nd charge to it, than the change would be meaningless because we wouldn't be able to use it for healing since we need the MP more and continue to use Assize on CD due to that need. I'm not saying that Assize should be made the solution to the problem because its not. What I am saying is that the MP changes have kind of made me paranoid about what could happen is all.

[Jonathan_Clover]

I'm all for this, especially since weaving windows will no longer be an issue come 6.0. This would be great for them, especially if the Thin Air change is staying the way it is.

Like Sebazy said, I see no reason why NOT to make this happen.