Are DPS LB3 becoming useless in certain large raids?

[Artemiz]

During that animation lock it does literally five to six times your average DPS.

I know I was very slightly off topic as the thread specifically says LB3 and that's what you're referring to. At least LB3 has an argument for it, 1 and 2 though are practically a waste of time.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

Melee LB is just tragic though, most of the time it isn't even worth getting the animation lock never mind dropping your rotation just to pop it.

Let's run some numbers, shall we?

Checking a quick DRG POV vid of a full i530 party doing E12s pre-echo, LB3 does about 857k across 8.2s including castbar + animation lock. That's roughly 4 GCDs lost.

For a fun comparison, let's theoretically break the limits and give a SAM a supernatural godmode where their sens never run out during those 4 GCDs so they can chain Midare back to back every GCD, let's even say their Tsubame CD is up so they can throw it in on the first midare as well for fun, and say every Midare is Kaiten'd. Checking another vid of an i530 SAM who had dance partner, their Midare un-crticial'd, un-dh'd, does about 72k-80k (we'll use 80k to give as much advantage to the SAM as possible). Their Critical-DH ones do about 150k.

Assuming nothing crits-DH's, that SAM, given godhax Sen powers, can only do about (80,000 * 5) = 400,000 damage, less than half of LB3's damage. But let's just crank up the godhax further and say they get Inner Release, so now everything is doing 150k.
Even giving them insane godhax, they're still only doing (150k * 5) = 750k damage. They're still doing less damage than melee LB3 in the same timeframe.

Melee LB3 is fine. It does literally 4-6x damage than you could possibly do during that timeframe depending on your job, melee LB3 is always a net dps gain.

Even checking LB2 in a vid of Matoyas relicit, it still does roughly 420k with a lockout of 6.86s, or a bit over 3 GCDs lost. Our godhax'd Samurai just barely falls short if nothing CRTs or DHs. For an actual realistic rotation, Melee LB2 is still doing far more damage than you can personally output in the same timeframe, it isn't even a contest. Melee LB1 is the only one where its use is sketchy. Melee LB2 & LB3's only actual discussion is whether firing it during raid buffs would net you another use of an LB2/3 by the end of the fight or not and if you have multiple melee dps in your group, which of you is the lowest dps and thus the LB user.

Total lockout times on LB's sourced from this lovely document by the allagan studies group: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Z7-WubKI/edit#

[Rhus]

Let's run some numbers, shall we?

Checking a quick DRG POV vid of a full i530 party doing E12s pre-echo, LB3 does about 857k across 8.2s including castbar + animation lock. That's roughly 4 GCDs lost.

For a fun comparison, let's theoretically break the limits and give a SAM a supernatural godmode where their sens never run out during those 4 GCDs so they can chain Midare back to back every GCD, let's even say their Tsubame CD is up so they can throw it in on the first midare as well for fun, and say every Midare is Kaiten'd. Checking another vid of an i530 SAM who had dance partner, their Midare un-crticial'd, un-dh'd, does about 72k-80k (we'll use 80k to give as much advantage to the SAM as possible). Their Critical-DH ones do about 150k.

Assuming nothing crits-DH's, that SAM, given godhax Sen powers, can only do about (80,000 * 5) = 400,000 damage, less than half of LB3's damage. But let's just crank up the godhax further and say they get Inner Release, so now everything is doing 150k.
Even giving them insane godhax, they're still only doing (150k * 5) = 750k damage. They're still doing less damage than melee LB3 in the same timeframe.

Melee LB3 is fine. It does literally 4-6x damage than you could possibly do during that timeframe depending on your job, melee LB3 is always a net dps gain.

Even checking LB2 in a vid of Matoyas relicit, it still does roughly 420k with a lockout of 6.86s, or a bit over 3 GCDs lost. Our godhax'd Samurai just barely falls short if nothing CRTs or DHs. For an actual realistic rotation, Melee LB2 is still doing far more damage than you can personally output in the same timeframe, it isn't even a contest. Melee LB1 is the only one where its use is sketchy. Melee LB2 & LB3's only actual discussion is whether firing it during raid buffs would net you another use of an LB2/3 by the end of the fight or not and if you have multiple melee dps in your group, which of you is the lowest dps and thus the LB user.

Total lockout times on LB's sourced from this lovely document by the allagan studies group: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Z7-WubKI/edit#

Mhmm mhmm, now tel me the prime numbers!

[Rongway]

I know I was very slightly off topic as the thread specifically says LB3 and that's what you're referring to. At least LB3 has an argument for it, 1 and 2 though are practically a waste of time.

Here are some calculations based on actual numbers from an E10S encounter. A 95th percentile NIN averaging 23,544 DPS over the course of the fight performed a Chimatsuri for 898,482 damage.


According to Fürst Blumier of Allagan Studies, LBs are subject to a ±5% damage range. So for the sake of argument let's assume 898,482 was at the maximum end of the range and it's possible it could have done as little as 812,912.

According to the same document, 1 LB3 = 3.5 LB1 and 1 LB2 = 2.2 LB1. The total animation locks for each LB are lock1 = 5.86s, lock2 = 6.86s, lock3 = 8.20s.

Minimum melee LB1 damage for this party: 812,912 / 3.5 ≈ 232,260
Maximum melee LB1 damage for this party: 898,482 / 3.5 ≈ 256,709
Damage this NIN could do during the lock period for an LB1: 23,544 d/s * 5.86s ≈ 137,967
Melee LB1 damage vs this NIN's normal attacks: 1.68x ~ 1.86x

Minimum melee LB2 damage for this party: 812,912 / 3.5 * 2.2 ≈ 510,972
Maximum melee LB2 damage for this party: 898,482 / 3.5 * 2.2 ≈ 564,759
Damage this NIN could do during the lock period for an LB2: 23,544 d/s * 6.86s ≈ 161,511
Melee LB2 damage vs this NIN's normal attacks: 3.16x ~ 3.49x

Minimum melee LB3 damage for this party: 812,912
Maximum melee LB3 damage for this party: 898,482
Damage this NIN could do during the lock period for an LB3: 23,544 d/s * 8.20s ≈ 193,060
Melee LB3 damage vs this NIN's normal attacks: 4.21x ~ 4.65x

A melee DD might burst for more than 1.68x their average DPS; but a burst window doesn't last ten minutes. After a few seconds the burst window is going to close and their DPS is going to drop below their average DPS, and that would be a good time to LB.

The 95th percentile NIN in the referenced E10S run never reached more than 1.95x their average DPS during a burst window, so beating out an LB2 would be right out. And mind you, these numbers are for a 95th percentile NIN. An average player will have a much higher gain from using the LB.


tl; dr: Melee LB1 is worth it outside of a burst window. Melee LB2 is always worth it.

[Artemiz]

Those numbers just back up how I feel about melee LB to be honest. Yeah you should use it and everything but man it's underwhelming. LB 1 needs a caveat to be even worth it and has an animation lock of nearly 6 seconds, how does that even make sense for a group attack that takes ages to charge? If LB 1 did 4-5x the damage of a normal rotation, with LB 2 doing maybe 7-8x and LB 3 doing 10-12x then I would say it's balanced against the other LB's. As it is though, I is disappoint. In the game of balance it's going up against a whole group raise, a super strong defensive buff that is literally mandatory in some fights, and a trash pack remover. Melee is the single target super punch, and it's meh.

People often wonder why new players don't use the LB, amongst the many reasons I would argue the "meh effect" of LB 1 coupled with a 6 second animation lock in a fight they don't yet understand is definitely one reason.

[Baxcel]

Those numbers just back up how I feel about melee LB to be honest. Yeah you should use it and everything but man it's underwhelming. LB 1 needs a caveat to be even worth it and has an animation lock of nearly 6 seconds, how does that even make sense for a group attack that takes ages to charge? If LB 1 did 4-5x the damage of a normal rotation, with LB 2 doing maybe 7-8x and LB 3 doing 10-12x then I would say it's balanced against the other LB's. As it is though, I is disappoint. In the game of balance it's going up against a whole group raise, a super strong defensive buff that is literally mandatory in some fights, and a trash pack remover. Melee is the single target super punch, and it's meh.

People often wonder why new players don't use the LB, amongst the many reasons I would argue the "meh effect" of LB 1 coupled with a 6 second animation lock in a fight they don't yet understand is definitely one reason.

Play with a pocket healer and have them rescue you outta the animation lock then :3

[Gemina]

Let's run some numbers, shall we?

Checking a quick DRG POV vid of a full i530 party doing E12s pre-echo, LB3 does about 857k across 8.2s including castbar + animation lock. That's roughly 4 GCDs lost.

For a fun comparison, let's theoretically break the limits and give a SAM a supernatural godmode where their sens never run out during those 4 GCDs so they can chain Midare back to back every GCD, let's even say their Tsubame CD is up so they can throw it in on the first midare as well for fun, and say every Midare is Kaiten'd. Checking another vid of an i530 SAM who had dance partner, their Midare un-crticial'd, un-dh'd, does about 72k-80k (we'll use 80k to give as much advantage to the SAM as possible). Their Critical-DH ones do about 150k.

Assuming nothing crits-DH's, that SAM, given godhax Sen powers, can only do about (80,000 * 5) = 400,000 damage, less than half of LB3's damage. But let's just crank up the godhax further and say they get Inner Release, so now everything is doing 150k.
Even giving them insane godhax, they're still only doing (150k * 5) = 750k damage. They're still doing less damage than melee LB3 in the same timeframe.

Melee LB3 is fine. It does literally 4-6x damage than you could possibly do during that timeframe depending on your job, melee LB3 is always a net dps gain.

Even checking LB2 in a vid of Matoyas relicit, it still does roughly 420k with a lockout of 6.86s, or a bit over 3 GCDs lost. Our godhax'd Samurai just barely falls short if nothing CRTs or DHs. For an actual realistic rotation, Melee LB2 is still doing far more damage than you can personally output in the same timeframe, it isn't even a contest. Melee LB1 is the only one where its use is sketchy. Melee LB2 & LB3's only actual discussion is whether firing it during raid buffs would net you another use of an LB2/3 by the end of the fight or not and if you have multiple melee dps in your group, which of you is the lowest dps and thus the LB user.

Total lockout times on LB's sourced from this lovely document by the allagan studies group: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Z7-WubKI/edit#

LB3 is a no brainer, but I think you're right about Blade Dance as well. I think only a melee burst phase will do more in the same amount of LB lock time, but not entirely positive. I have waived off a few wipes with LB2, but again, my burst phase wasn't up. Even then, I am going to feel much safer going with Blade Dance if the group needs high deeps quickly unless I am mid burst, in which case I am going to finish it out for sure.