Are DPS LB3 becoming useless in certain large raids?

[Gemina]

Let's run some numbers, shall we?

Checking a quick DRG POV vid of a full i530 party doing E12s pre-echo, LB3 does about 857k across 8.2s including castbar + animation lock. That's roughly 4 GCDs lost.

For a fun comparison, let's theoretically break the limits and give a SAM a supernatural godmode where their sens never run out during those 4 GCDs so they can chain Midare back to back every GCD, let's even say their Tsubame CD is up so they can throw it in on the first midare as well for fun, and say every Midare is Kaiten'd. Checking another vid of an i530 SAM who had dance partner, their Midare un-crticial'd, un-dh'd, does about 72k-80k (we'll use 80k to give as much advantage to the SAM as possible). Their Critical-DH ones do about 150k.

Assuming nothing crits-DH's, that SAM, given godhax Sen powers, can only do about (80,000 * 5) = 400,000 damage, less than half of LB3's damage. But let's just crank up the godhax further and say they get Inner Release, so now everything is doing 150k.
Even giving them insane godhax, they're still only doing (150k * 5) = 750k damage. They're still doing less damage than melee LB3 in the same timeframe.

Melee LB3 is fine. It does literally 4-6x damage than you could possibly do during that timeframe depending on your job, melee LB3 is always a net dps gain.

Even checking LB2 in a vid of Matoyas relicit, it still does roughly 420k with a lockout of 6.86s, or a bit over 3 GCDs lost. Our godhax'd Samurai just barely falls short if nothing CRTs or DHs. For an actual realistic rotation, Melee LB2 is still doing far more damage than you can personally output in the same timeframe, it isn't even a contest. Melee LB1 is the only one where its use is sketchy. Melee LB2 & LB3's only actual discussion is whether firing it during raid buffs would net you another use of an LB2/3 by the end of the fight or not and if you have multiple melee dps in your group, which of you is the lowest dps and thus the LB user.

Total lockout times on LB's sourced from this lovely document by the allagan studies group: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Z7-WubKI/edit#

LB3 is a no brainer, but I think you're right about Blade Dance as well. I think only a melee burst phase will do more in the same amount of LB lock time, but not entirely positive. I have waived off a few wipes with LB2, but again, my burst phase wasn't up. Even then, I am going to feel much safer going with Blade Dance if the group needs high deeps quickly unless I am mid burst, in which case I am going to finish it out for sure.

[_Pigzig]

why can't casuals lb

[RitsukoSonoda]

LB scaling is one of the things I'm wondering about after the stat squish coming in Endwalker. Will they leave the LB damage scaling as it is thus making its usage more impactful during fights or will that get nerfed due to enemy stats also being reduced to accommodate the stat squish with player gear and the removal of belts?

[Rongway]

LB scaling is one of the things I'm wondering about after the stat squish coming in Endwalker. Will they leave the LB damage scaling as it is thus making its usage more impactful during fights or will that get nerfed due to enemy stats also being reduced to accommodate the stat squish with player gear and the removal of belts?

Of course they're going to reduce LB damage as well. Even then, it will still be worth using because nobody is going to do be able to do anywhere near that much damage with normal attacks even at their burstiest times.

[Rhus]

Let's run some numbers, shall we?

Checking a quick DRG POV vid of a full i530 party doing E12s pre-echo, LB3 does about 857k across 8.2s including castbar + animation lock. That's roughly 4 GCDs lost.

For a fun comparison, let's theoretically break the limits and give a SAM a supernatural godmode where their sens never run out during those 4 GCDs so they can chain Midare back to back every GCD, let's even say their Tsubame CD is up so they can throw it in on the first midare as well for fun, and say every Midare is Kaiten'd. Checking another vid of an i530 SAM who had dance partner, their Midare un-crticial'd, un-dh'd, does about 72k-80k (we'll use 80k to give as much advantage to the SAM as possible). Their Critical-DH ones do about 150k.

Assuming nothing crits-DH's, that SAM, given godhax Sen powers, can only do about (80,000 * 5) = 400,000 damage, less than half of LB3's damage. But let's just crank up the godhax further and say they get Inner Release, so now everything is doing 150k.
Even giving them insane godhax, they're still only doing (150k * 5) = 750k damage. They're still doing less damage than melee LB3 in the same timeframe.

Melee LB3 is fine. It does literally 4-6x damage than you could possibly do during that timeframe depending on your job, melee LB3 is always a net dps gain.

Even checking LB2 in a vid of Matoyas relicit, it still does roughly 420k with a lockout of 6.86s, or a bit over 3 GCDs lost. Our godhax'd Samurai just barely falls short if nothing CRTs or DHs. For an actual realistic rotation, Melee LB2 is still doing far more damage than you can personally output in the same timeframe, it isn't even a contest. Melee LB1 is the only one where its use is sketchy. Melee LB2 & LB3's only actual discussion is whether firing it during raid buffs would net you another use of an LB2/3 by the end of the fight or not and if you have multiple melee dps in your group, which of you is the lowest dps and thus the LB user.

Total lockout times on LB's sourced from this lovely document by the allagan studies group: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...Z7-WubKI/edit#

Mhmm mhmm, now tel me the prime numbers!

[Artemiz]

Those numbers just back up how I feel about melee LB to be honest. Yeah you should use it and everything but man it's underwhelming. LB 1 needs a caveat to be even worth it and has an animation lock of nearly 6 seconds, how does that even make sense for a group attack that takes ages to charge? If LB 1 did 4-5x the damage of a normal rotation, with LB 2 doing maybe 7-8x and LB 3 doing 10-12x then I would say it's balanced against the other LB's. As it is though, I is disappoint. In the game of balance it's going up against a whole group raise, a super strong defensive buff that is literally mandatory in some fights, and a trash pack remover. Melee is the single target super punch, and it's meh.

People often wonder why new players don't use the LB, amongst the many reasons I would argue the "meh effect" of LB 1 coupled with a 6 second animation lock in a fight they don't yet understand is definitely one reason.

[Baxcel]

Those numbers just back up how I feel about melee LB to be honest. Yeah you should use it and everything but man it's underwhelming. LB 1 needs a caveat to be even worth it and has an animation lock of nearly 6 seconds, how does that even make sense for a group attack that takes ages to charge? If LB 1 did 4-5x the damage of a normal rotation, with LB 2 doing maybe 7-8x and LB 3 doing 10-12x then I would say it's balanced against the other LB's. As it is though, I is disappoint. In the game of balance it's going up against a whole group raise, a super strong defensive buff that is literally mandatory in some fights, and a trash pack remover. Melee is the single target super punch, and it's meh.

People often wonder why new players don't use the LB, amongst the many reasons I would argue the "meh effect" of LB 1 coupled with a 6 second animation lock in a fight they don't yet understand is definitely one reason.

Play with a pocket healer and have them rescue you outta the animation lock then :3