Changes to Savage Loot Lock System

[Shurrikhan]

2 chest for 8 persons on a first clear of the week for a competent group.
2 chest for 6/7 persons on a clear for people who can't do it without someone else who already have do it.
You dont see what's wrong with this solution ? You get gear faster by subbing someone who already cleared over time than a groupe of 8 poeple doing it right.
You get the picture and how it breaks any balance ?

You're saying that like it's a matter of subbing in people who have cleared the boss at least once to support a party of learners. That is case where they are already taken for the carry, as the completion value will exceed that of the loot itself. But that's not who would primarily from this. Rather, it would be whoever has already cleared the given raid, just not yet this week, and needs an 8th person, as has commonly been suggested by merely shifting the penalty by one person/chest.

And if the situation in which the gear has already typically been worth sacrificing is such an issue, then--again--simply completely remove the two chest system as a concept. Instead, if you want to imitate the earlier results exactly (minus the chance for any form of gear cheese) each person who clears has, on their first clear only, a 25% chance at a piece of loot, just as before. If they don't want it, they can trade it to, or exchange with a party member who also cleared for the first time that week. Or, just straight up remove the RNG, guaranteeing a piece of flexible raid-unique currency, while charging a higher amount of said currency accordingly so the loot acquisition rate remains, averaged over a party, exactly the same. Until you clear the second tier of the given raid, you can only spend it on whatever the first would have dropped; until you clear the third, you can only purchase what's from the first and second; and so on. Done. Less inventory bloat. Less RNG. No faster gear acquisition, nor any slower (unless you were somehow managing to milk/ninja/guilt loot out of your party previously and such wouldn't work over Trade).

[Izscha]

You're saying that like it's a matter of subbing in people who have cleared the boss at least once to support a party of learners. That is case where they are already taken for the carry, as the completion value will exceed that of the loot itself. But that's not who would primarily from this. Rather, it would be whoever has already cleared the given raid, just not yet this week, and needs an 8th person, as has commonly been suggested by merely shifting the penalty by one person/chest.

And if the situation in which the gear has already typically been worth sacrificing is such an issue, then--again--simply completely remove the two chest system as a concept. Instead, if you want to imitate the earlier results exactly (minus the chance for any form of gear cheese) each person who clears has, on their first clear only, a 25% chance at a piece of loot, just as before. If they don't want it, they can trade it to, or exchange with a party member who also cleared for the first time that week. Or, just straight up remove the RNG, guaranteeing a piece of flexible raid-unique currency, while charging a higher amount of said currency accordingly so the loot acquisition rate remains, averaged over a party, exactly the same. Until you clear the second tier of the given raid, you can only spend it on whatever the first would have dropped; until you clear the third, you can only purchase what's from the first and second; and so on. Done. Less inventory bloat. Less RNG. No faster gear acquisition, nor any slower (unless you were somehow managing to milk/ninja/guilt loot out of your party previously and such wouldn't work over Trade).

That's not up to SE to changes things so people can have everything even if they're not in a full party.
You want your 2 chests you have 8 ppl during the week, if you dont you can still clear it with someone else but you give up part of the loot as a price for it and it's far better than having nothing.
That's on your group if you cant be 8 this week no matter what the reason is, so why SE should care about your groups life more than others ?
And if people do prefer to no clear it and loose everything 1 week because "i want 2 chests" that's their greed that do cost them the more, not the rules.

I do get it, you guys wants everything asap but sometimes you dont and it's not a big deal either.
Heck i even help groups who were just happy to have their book monday evening because almost half of them could not make it during this week.

If you're not greedy you wont have a problem with this system, if you are sure let's make magic fix so everyone get everything and all is good and wonderful.

[Shurrikhan]

OP: I'd like to be able to help my FC mates waiting forever to find an 8th member for late-week raids without costing them half their loot.

you guys wants everything asap

Ahh, flagrant reductionism, we meet again.

[Anonicat]

Doc, just one of these times it'd be nice if you actually read the OP before trying to bring down 'ye hammer of pragmatic realism'.

This would not increase the number of chests for a typical run. It just makes it so your entire carrot for running a raid in a given week isn't cut in half the moment you can't find 7 others who have yet to do the raid that week and have to rely instead on help from a friend who has already cleared to round out those numbers.



Likewise, already in the OP (brackets added for the context I snipped out):

I am a bit late but in reference to Jeeq's post. It doesn't matter that happens already. Second people can take a social stance against that and simply not do a group where 1 person is trying to take all the loot in a PF, and just disband it. Kind of like how 2 chest groups disband when 7/8 haven't cleared, and loot is cut in half.

[QooEr]

So once again it was never about helping, it's more about i want to give my friends stuff.

Stop putting words in other people's mouths and make actual arguments.

Nothing stops you from helping anyone, what stops you if the fact that they rightfully dont get full loot, hence greed.
Thanks for pointing it out.

Consider this all too common scenario that has happened to me more times than i can count since i started doing savage in heavensward:
A: hey we need 1 person to sub tonight can you help us?
B: i already cleared so you wont get 2 chest, sorry
A: oh its fine, i'll ask someone else
(A's group clears that week without problems with someone else and get their 2 chests)
B: i wish i could help my friends clear savage without costing them half their loot.

B wanted to help but didnt want to screw A's loot over. Where is the greed?

Are you going to tell me wanting anything at all is greed now?

what stops you if the fact that they rightfully dont get full loot, hence greed.

If B helped A and A got their 2 chests in this scenario, how exactly is that "not right?" A easily cleared without B's help.
If B had an alt, they couldve helped them regardless. Is this "not right" too?
If A had asked them earlier, wether thats days, hours or minutes, B couldve helped thm with no problems. Is this "not right" as well?

[Izscha]

Stop putting words in other people's mouths and make actual arguments.



Consider this all too common scenario that has happened to me more times than i can count since i started doing savage in heavensward:
A: hey we need 1 person to sub tonight can you help us?
B: i already cleared so you wont get 2 chest, sorry
A: oh its fine, i'll ask someone else
(A's group clears that week without problems with someone else and get their 2 chests)
B: i wish i could help my friends clear savage without costing them half their loot.

B wanted to help but didnt want to screw A's loot over. Where is the greed?

Are you going to tell me wanting anything at all is greed now?



If B helped A and A got their 2 chests in this scenario, how exactly is that "not right?" A easily cleared without B's help.

If they can do it without B's help and get 2 loots there is no problem then, it did involve someone else that did not clear either.
You want 2 chests you take 8 people that's did not clear this week, if you dont you give up loots simple as that you can tweak it all you want and keep quoting me trying to make a way out of it it changes nothing.
And i already did explain how you can play around it earlier to stuff character faster this way, if you only read what you want no problem, but dont ask me to answer question i did already answer earlier.
If you truly and only want help others, make an alt for stuff like this, problem solved.

[QooEr]

If they can do it without B's help and get 2 loots there is no problem then

The problem is the same as it has been from the very beginning. B wanted to play with their friend and they couldnt because of the loot system negatively affecting A. How many times does it have to be repeated until you understand it?

You want 2 chests you take 8 people that's did not clear this week, if you dont you give up loots simple as that

And why cant this change? every single pseudo-argument you've given in favor of this system is circular reasoning.

And i already did explain how you can play around it earlier to stuff character faster this way

And i, and others have repeatedly told you that what you claim "would happen" for gearing characters faster already happens. The current loot system restrictions change nothing for those that want to "cheat" the system very easily with alts. most normal statics that dont use alts funnel their gear into dps players first as well.

If you truly and only want help others, make an alt for stuff like this, problem solved.

I do in fact have a raiding alt but its a huge time investment for simply wanting to play with friends without screwing their loot.

you can tweak it all you want and keep quoting me trying to make a way out of it it changes nothing. [...] And i already did explain how you can play around it earlier to stuff character faster this way, if you only read what you want no problem, but dont ask me to answer question i did already answer earlier.

If it changes nothing why didnt you answer any of the questions that i asked then? Surely your eloquent arguments with amazing reasoning can stand some scrutiny. None of them were asked before in this thread.

1. B wanted to help but didnt want to screw A's loot over. Where is the greed? Are you going to tell me wanting anything at all is greed now?
2. If B helped A and A got their 2 chests in this scenario, how exactly is that "not right?" A easily cleared without B's help.
3. If B had an alt, they couldve helped them regardless. Is this "not right" too?
4. If A had asked them earlier, wether thats days, hours or minutes, B couldve helped them with no problems. Is this "not right" as well?

[DrWho2010]

also need to consider that while the current system works, inconveniencing the rest of you just stretches out the time that people remain subbed to the game, but not at a significant detriment, so it all works out in the end.

[Lunalepsy]

Sounds like a fun idea!

[Bloudmourne]

I agree that our current savage loot system should be tweaked, specially now that we have a lot of new people playing. A slight modification to what ForteNightshade posted. Two chest for 1-4 people and one chest if more than 4 people have cleared, while adding RitsukoSonada's idea that every book will become universal. The number of books required will still stay the same, while adding some flexibility on gearing either both main or alt roles. if all of this changes are too much to ask for Yoshi-P and team, then I propose to just make savage clears drop two books instead one.