Regarding the updates to the Terms of Services (dialogue and criticism)

[Xanfer]

So the new updates on the TOS were released today! and most of the changes were pretty good but there is one subject which has put a lot of strain and stress on the playerbase
Communication based conflict
mainly this brings up stuff regarding "over critical analysis" of other players, in and out of content. This is, in my opinion, a step too far into interactions between players (almost like a over-protective parent). I think that the team should reflect and revise this change in the TOS, afterall Final Fantasy XIV is rated PG-13 by deafult.
Now what exactly is the issue? I will go over the FAQ section that was released today.
Nuisance behavior
Offensive expression
Expressions that provoke or belittle another person, such as excessive criticism, negation/ridicule (example 6 and below)
These examples are far too aggressive and personally can lead to "casual toxicity" (i define as players who do not pull their own weight in content that they need to, such as savage tier raids or extreme trials, this can also be applied to PVP) and these players, who do not wish to improve using the advice others give, will report the players trying to clear content. while no one should be called bad or stupid for messing up a mechanic, some mechanics are done in one way and one way only, and there is no room for opinion, it is fact at this point. trying to suggest the playerbase to form it as a "suggestion" is not the proper work around.
Everyones time needs to be equally valued, from new players to vets, and my small amount of free time should not be wasted attempting to make a suggestion to someone who is not going to take my suggestion. i believe this TOS update leaves a lot of power to internet trolls to goad people into getting reported (as i believe greifing was not mentioned in this update, if it was i am sorry).
Play style should also be up to criticism, for example, a redmage who does no DPS and is only "vercure"ing is a playstyle that holds back the rest of the party. The Hall of novice is not updated to the current state of the game, and does not teach the players the fundamentals of each class and their intended basic rotation (blackmage using fire 4 to fire 1 to fire 4, summoner rotation and uses of pets, etc.) and the main website for FFXIV only lists off what each action does, but not how to use them. while their are indepth guides to playing each job hundreds of times on the internet, it should be the games job to correctly teach the player the basics and fundamentals of their job, not the playerbase (who can no longer critize without the fear of getting banned)
(post too long, part 2 added below)

[Xanfer]

I believe that this pretty much sums up my distaste with the update, there are other small things such as the point "・Intentional leaving or disconnection", you already have a system in place to punish people who do this, however i believe this is directly in reponse to "Mentor roulette", however i think personally the issue more so lies in how much content (specifically harder content) is in the roulette and how little the reward is for doing it. I believe that the roulette needs a review to adjust the reward to make players want to stick through the harder content, and not quit when a hard piece of content comes up. (I mean, who wants to teach 7 new players how to do an extreme trial while synced as part of your daily leveling and it doesn't even reward you as much as MSQ roulette? this is what Party finder is for, not mentor roulette.)
As another high end example, in savage tier content there is a minimum DPS threshold each player needs to make on average, and some players are not prepared to meet that minimum. As an example, back in the days of ARR, when i was a fresh player, I had no clue how to play Black mage, I thought that umbral form was the most optimal way to play because i wasnt consuming MP! I was very naive at the time, and I think others will be this way too (if only a little smarter than i was). I was nowhere near good enough to clear out the first Coils of Bahamut floors, but today? Im cleaning up the Eden series with high praise of how good i am (at least to my team), but i only got that way because I was told i was wrong, and my views were challanged and as people, that is how we learn and improve. I can guarantee every person on the development team has had moments in their lives where they could only learn from being flat out told they were wrong, or doing something the wrong way, without any softing of the blow.
The bottom line is, the playerbase at a minimum should be old enough to understand that not every person is your friend, and we should be old enough to understand criticism that is due to mistakes. Harrsement is not good, but coddling the playerbase is not healthly either. If the systems in place to teach players were much better i could see myself not being upset at this small portion of the TOS update, but its not there yet.
critiquing playstyle is important to improvement, please do not allow it to be easily punished.

[Sotaris]

Why not just keep it in the one thread we already have on the subject?

[ICountFrom0]

Given that some mechanics have to be done, but SAYING that it has to be done, or wipe can get you banned, I honestly don't see myself actually saying advice anymore.

I'll post a video, encourage people to watch it, and everybody else to wait long enough for it to be watched, and sit and wait to make sure that it's clear that I am being a good and kind person and giving them that time.

And then if that fails, just suggest folks watch it again, or post a different one, and we sit through that, and wait. Until somebody finds just the right guide that explains it in the way that I'm not allowed to, but will actually work.

[Roda]

I'm fairly certain that this is just a failure of localization since being direct with people, and using very... confident language (particularly a LOT of confident language), can give off the impression that you're being rude/pushy in japanese.

Whereas, at least where I'm from, it's the complete opposite, where being direct and to the point is courteous (not wasting time, respecting someone's self-confidence), and being indirect can be either rude or flat-out a declaration of war if worded in a specific way. (there was a part in one of the media tour interviews where yoshi P was translated as saying "bless their hearts" about people wanting to help newbies, and my body flew into fight or flight mode thinking "OH MY GOD, HOW COULD HE BE SO MEAN TO PEOPLE JUST TRYING TO HELP??!" before I realized that, that expression doesn't mean the same thing everywhere lol)

So like, the rules read pretty alright if you're in the mindset of "this behavior is only used if you're deliberately trying to be rude" But, at least where I stand, a lot of those statements just look like normal conversational tones that I wouldn't bat an eye if said to me. ("Roda, you're doing a thing wrong do you need help", "Roda you're wearing DoH gear as a tank", "This mechanic needs to be responded to or it's a wipe")

[ICountFrom0]

Remember:

"Vote kicking for bad performance is already against TOS."

So we can't kick the trolls.

[Kes13a]

I have zero problems with ANY part of the update.

I am also not sure why we needed another thread on the topic.

I dont feel any stress about the changes at all, and I doubt much of the player base, who can treat others with a minimal amount of decency and respect, will either. as is often said for these things, just dont be a jerk. how hard is that for people? pretty sad when SE has to make rules because people cant avoid being a jerk if you ask me....

[Vahlnir]

Remember:

"Vote kicking for bad performance is already against TOS."

So we can't kick the trolls.

If they are purposely holding back the group's progress then yes, they can be kicked. The key, at least now, is to not make a scene of it.

[ICountFrom0]

If they are purposely holding back the group's progress then yes, they can be kicked. The key, at least now, is to not make a scene of it.

You can't prove they arn't just bad.
Pointing out how they are bad is bannable.
NOT giving a reason is bannable.
Leaving because it's going badly is a 30 minute deserter penalty.
Going AFK to get kicked to avoid the 30 minute penalty is bannable.

I have zero problems with ANY part of the update.

I am also not sure why we needed another thread on the topic.

I dont feel any stress about the changes at all, and I doubt much of the player base, who can treat others with a minimal amount of decency and respect, will either. as is often said for these things, just dont be a jerk. how hard is that for people? pretty sad when SE has to make rules because people cant avoid being a jerk if you ask me....

Because the list of bannable offences literally includes the statement that actions cause wipes.

[Kes13a]

You can't prove they arn't just bad.
Pointing out how they are bad is bannable.
NOT giving a reason is bannable.
Leaving because it's going badly is a 30 minute deserter penalty.
Going AFK to get kicked to avoid the 30 minute penalty is bannable.



Because the list of bannable offences literally includes the statement that actions cause wipes.

I am pretty sure, that if you are kicked for being a troll, and blocking progress, as you said in the other thread, again and again and again, those kicking you would have plenty of justification for doing so if you are being a troll and refusing to do mechanics.

there is a difference between being bad and being a troll. those that try to troll because they think they can get away with it now, I am sure will find that out.

I would be seriously surprised if this affects a majority of people playing, because generally, aside from a forum majority it seems, most people at least treat others decently and have never had a warning or a temp vacation due to actions in game. but feel free to push your luck if you are so inclined....