Extreme over correction in ToS? New ToS is going to kill pugging

[Shironeko_Narunyan]

it's prohibited to leave right after entering a duty or intentionally disconnect

Leaving isn't prohibited; it's penalized already. If you leave, you can't queue for 30 minutes.
Disconnecting though, and hoping people kick you, so you don't have to eat the penalty, is prohibited -- but it's also hard to prove.

However, if someone has a track record of doing this repeatedly, the excuse "bad internet" becomes shaky, and weaker each time.

[Darkobra]

This entire thread is literally the definition of "Oh no! Anyway."

[KOPF]

That phrasing is definitely passive-aggressive but something like "be careful not to move when the boss is casting Slippery Ice" is more of a friendly reminder while still not calling anyone out.

To me the passive aggressiveness comes specifically from the passive tense. If I and only I made a mistake, and you said something like that, I would feel that as condescending. I know I screwed up, you know I screwed up. So why the tiptoeing? Just say it to me straight what I should do. But again, this feels clearly as a cultural difference in communication to me.

So, it's clarification that it was just clarification of rules that were already in place. Wow!

Yes, but with the clarifications we now know the problems that we have and have had. With the examples now out there, there could be more reports, which would be in line with their CoC. While it is a good thing for SE, it also helps the community to know exactly what the norms in the CoC are. I am just giving my feedback on the entirety of the CoC now that I know exactly what those norms are and thinking that they might be too strict in some places especially with different cultures in play.

[xxmiamorecadenza]

This is why I stick to Discord voice chat. I can cuss at my leisure and critique someone as harshly as I fancy without consequence game-wise. Well, being black-listed maybe.

[Iscah]

To me the passive aggressiveness comes specifically from the passive tense.

They don't seem like the same tense to me. "Some people can't do it right" is talking about you but not to you. "Do this thing" is giving a direct instruction to [the reader], which is you.

[Reinha]

That phrasing is definitely passive-aggressive but something like "be careful not to move when the boss is casting Slippery Ice" is more of a friendly reminder while still not calling anyone out.

Do people actually feel like they are being accused of something when someone directly addresses them person to person? To me that sentence was about as neutral as "you seem to have gotten wet in the rain, Reinha" or "wait, you dropped this".

[KOPF]

They don't seem like the same tense to me. "Some people can't do it right" is talking about you but not to you. "Do this thing" is giving a direct instruction to [the reader], which is you.

Yeah, that phrase is very dismissive and belittling to me. But I would say that your first example from the post before is as well unless there are clearly multiple people who did the same mistake as I did. The multiple people context would also make the quoted phrase on the edge of being acceptable as well, but I can see that it probably is felt very dismissive for others. But yeah, these are just different interpretations in the end. My main problem still is, if I am reading the CoC right, something like "Hey X, you need to do Y to do the mechanic Z" would also be warranted enough for a report and I really don't think it should.

Especially with terms like "If you can't do the mechanic well, maybe you shouldn't bother joining the party." is also a clear example of a phrase you should not say. Which to me is not rude at all, it gives a very logical reason without any direct insults. Is it a negative phrase? Yes, but so is just saying no. I would rather have someone said that to me and then kick me than not saying anything and kicking me straight off.

Logically to me, if you don't know the fight well enough to consistently kill the boss, then you shouldn't join farm parties. This isn't to say, that mistakes are unacceptable, but that if you really do not understand the mechanic, you will most likely fail it. Think something like Fury's 14 on E5S. If one person fails, it is almost certainly a wipe. And this was really a problem in PF farm parties, since on average I would get a clear per 15 to 20 tries in farm parties while most of the team would do the mechanic correctly. Granted, I played at the tail end of the tier, so most of the players, who are really invested in Savage content in PF had already finished and gotten their best in slots and therefore were not playing in PF.

The phrasing is really off on all the examples as well (probably from the transliteration from Japanese), which makes them really weird phrases. No one I know talks that way, so it makes it very hard to think what the actual core message are to take away from those examples.

Do people actually feel like they are being accused of something when someone directly addresses them person to person? To me that sentence was about as neutral as "you seem to have gotten wet in the rain, Reinha" or "wait, you dropped this".

That is exactly my point as well. You are Finnish like me, so it definitely could also be a cultural difference.

[Nishira]

"you seem to have gotten wet in the rain, Reinha"

It’s funny because internally I’d think: well duh, Captain Obvious! It’s one of the ways we tease each other in my house actually, and you can expect a very sarcastic response in return With strangers I keep that in check, but to me it’s pointless info that I am quite aware of myself. Just hand me a towel, much appreciated.

In that same vein saying: “you are making a lot of mistakes” seems equally pointless to me. Usually people will know themselves. They don’t particularly enjoy it either. It puts a spotlight on them while they may feel flustered and/or confused already, and it may just heighten those sensations. What does pointing out the obvious achieve? I’m genuinely curious, because I’ve never understood the function of it unless it’s a consequence of sincere surprise (“Oh no, you got completely soaked!”).

[Reinha]

What does pointing out the obvious achieve? I’m genuinely curious, because I’ve never understood the function of it unless it’s a consequence of sincere surprise (“Oh no, you got completely soaked!”).

It opens up a conversation, or it can be funny as you said, or it can show that you have noticed a problem and are willing to offer a solution without feeding it to them before they ask.

"Your melds are incorrect."

"Really? What should I meld?"

"Crit and direct hit are best for your job."

"Thanks, give me a minute and I'll fix it."

That is exactly my point as well. You are Finnish like me, so it definitely could also be a cultural difference.

Wow, I thought I was going crazy but it all makes a lot of sense now. "If you can't do the mechanic well, you shouldn't join a farm party" is word for word something I could imagine myself saying. It's reasonable, it explains what I'm thinking and it's not offensive. I would have no hard feelings if someone said it to me. Gentle indirect speech like "let's all check if our gear is in order" when one person is making the mistake is something I'd only expect to hear from a kindergarten teacher. It's condescending. It also doesn't tell me if I am the one who has to improve.

It's good to be aware of these kinds of cultural differences, I think. I don't want to insult anyone on purpose. It does make me a little bit sad that the game is specifically banning the style of communication I've been used to my whole life.

[ICountFrom0]

Wow, I thought I was going crazy but it all makes a lot of sense now. "If you can't do the mechanic well, you shouldn't join a farm party" is word for word something I could imagine myself saying. It's reasonable, it explains what I'm thinking and it's not offensive. I would have no hard feelings if someone said it to me. Gentle indirect speech like "let's all check if our gear is in order" when one person is making the mistake is something I'd only expect to hear from a kindergarten teacher. It's condescending. It also doesn't tell me if I am the one who has to improve.

It's good to be aware of these kinds of cultural differences, I think. I don't want to insult anyone on purpose. It does make me a little bit sad that the game is specifically banning the style of communication I've been used to my whole life.

I aint finnish, but I'm far more likely to be offended by one person saying that everybody should check equipment, then one person with badly setup equipment getting a lesson in properly setting up materia, even if that person who was an idiot and had it wrong was ME.

(hint, it HAS been me, and if somebody hadden't been dirrect, I wouldn't have ever figured it out).