Extreme over correction in ToS? New ToS is going to kill pugging

[ForteNightshade]

If you're worried about rules changing so you have to speak to people politely, it really says more about you.

While MPK may be a known troll, their point in this instance isn't inaccurate. How is answering "They DRG keeps messing up Lions" impolite or banworthy when it's literally addressing the problem? All this encourages is even more quiet disbands because no one will want to actually say why we're wiping.

[Kaurhz]

While MPK may be a known troll, their point in this instance isn't inaccurate. How is answering "They DRG keeps messing up Lions" impolite or banworthy when it's literally addressing the problem? All this encourages is even more quiet disbands because no one will want to actually say why we're wiping.

And so we go round and round on this stool. It'd be a valid point if people were getting banned for such instances, but I can't help but feel like in the majority of cases these are people masquerading and attempting to shift the narrative when in fact they probably were being inappropriate with how they gave feedback.

What they see: "Please, can you pull bigger so we can use our full toolkit and be done with the dungeon faster"

The probable reality: "Thanks for making the run take 25 minutes, please don't tank again you suck at it"

Now if we want to use their own examples and be equally as pedantic, then there's a stark difference between consistently calling someone out and telling them that they cannot do something, versus giving a little encouragement.

"Hey, did you know if you stand here, and do [x], then you can avoid [y]"; "Maybe next time eh? / Let's give it a couple more tries", or then explaining a mechanic to an individual is not belittling said individual. It's a case of "It's not what you say, but how you say it" - Along those lines. Which quite honestly seems to be an ongoing problem.

[Sqwall]

And so we go round and round on this stool. It'd be a valid point if people were getting banned for such instances, but I can't help but feel like in the majority of cases these are people masquerading and attempting to shift the narrative when in fact they probably were being inappropriate with how they gave feedback.

What they see: "Please, can you pull bigger so we can use our full toolkit and be done with the dungeon faster"

The probable reality: "Thanks for making the run take 25 minutes, please don't tank again you suck at it"

Now if we want to use their own examples and be equally as pedantic, then there's a stark difference between consistently calling someone out and telling them that they cannot do something, versus giving a little encouragement.

"Hey, did you know if you stand here, and do [x], then you can avoid [y]"; "Maybe next time eh? / Let's give it a couple more tries", or then explaining a mechanic to an individual is not belittling said individual. It's a case of "It's not what you say, but how you say it" - Along those lines. Which quite honestly seems to be an ongoing problem.

My thought exactly. We should PUG lol

[Sqwall]

While MPK may be a known troll, their point in this instance isn't inaccurate. How is answering "They DRG keeps messing up Lions" impolite or banworthy when it's literally addressing the problem? All this encourages is even more quiet disbands because no one will want to actually say why we're wiping.

Wrong. You know why you are wiping...you know the problem...you know how to correct it, but you bungle it by just saying " The DRG keeps messing up". This is petty and juvenile. Fixing the problem by creating a difficult finger pointing situation just compounds the issue.

It's easy to point a finger at someone and say "You messed up, STOP IT!". Does that really fix the problem? Hell no!

If you know the problem and the obvious solution...THEN (clap) GIVE (clap) THE (clap) SOLUTION (clap) TO (clap) THE (clap) PROBLEM (clap)! When I see the person that's causing the problem I don't single them out. I just ask "Any questions on tethers?" or "Any questions on when to use knockback immunity? Noticed had quite a few deaths during that. No harm in clarification." Crazy enough....people ask questions. "Hey, yeah when do you pop knockback immunity? Can't seem to time it. Sorry!"

Literally 4-5 people respond in chat on solutions. The person that was messing up now knows what to do. This happens ALL the time in PF.

I truly believe EVERYONE in this game want's to be the best they can be, and strive for that. Some people have a hard time asking for help, or don't want to seem stupid, or waste peoples time explaining. They get anxiety from just asking a simple question and hoping they don't get comment that makes them virtually die inside.

I try to explain fights as if I'm teaching my kids something, I ask questions. They are smart, but sometimes can't see the forest past the trees. The solution is there, but sometimes you have to find a better way to explain it so they come up with their own solution.

Example: I had to explain the meteor towers during first add phase in SoS EX to a new DPS. We share the same tower and they weren't making it to the ring at all. I just said, "Hey, (name) did you have question on the meteor towers?" They said, "What meteor towers?" The whole party spammed stuff about towers. I said, "Glad you asked (name), after you take your flare marker to SE corner and it goes off...RUN to the tower by 2 marker. Good?" The person said, "OHHHH THAT ring....I was confused." I said, "No worries! , just ask question if you get lost." They said, "Well i'm doing my best...first time in here"

Not everyone is born a pro....it takes time and experience.

[ForteNightshade]

Wrong. You know why you are wiping...you know the problem...you know how to correct it, but you bungle it by just saying " The DRG keeps messing up". This is petty and juvenile. Fixing the problem by creating a difficult finger pointing situation just compounds the issue.

It's easy to point a finger at someone and say "You messed up, STOP IT!". Does that really fix the problem? Hell no!

How is it juvenile to point out who is making the mistake? You're assuming even they know or that calling out said mistake is purposefully petty. Per my example if the aforementioned DRG were consistently wiping us to Lions in E12S and someone asked what's the issue. Why do I need to be needlessly vague and dance around who's causing the problem to avoid potentially hurt feelings? It's essentially treating everyone like we're toddlers who can't handle even the slightest degree of criticism. I shouldn't have to go over every single spot as if we're just starting prog because of one person. With that said, I also wouldn't ripping into said person over a mistake. Saying something along the lines of, "Cassandra, you're going to the wrong spot" is neither toxic nor juvenile yet according to these rules, if they're enforced literally, it will be. Instead, they want the entirely childish approach of "Okay everyone. Let's go over marker placements again since people seem lost."

It's comically silly we have to be this vague all to spare feelings because god forbid someone gets upset. Like I said, what this will result in is more people simply leaving or groups disbanding after 2-3 wipes.

[TaleraRistain]

While MPK may be a known troll, their point in this instance isn't inaccurate. How is answering "They DRG keeps messing up Lions" impolite or banworthy when it's literally addressing the problem? All this encourages is even more quiet disbands because no one will want to actually say why we're wiping.

What's constructive about just finger pointing? Does this statement try to do anything to determine exactly why the DRG is having trouble? Does it offer any suggestions on what can be adjusted?

As others in the thread have said, you can still give feedback to people. But phrasing and presentation matter. As someone mentioned, any HR training or training for a leadership positions requires this care and professionalism. If you want to be a leader and guide your party to success, then it's an essential skill to pick up.

[lezard21]

As someone mentioned, any HR training or training for a leadership positions requires this care and professionalism. If you want to be a leader and guide your party to success, then it's an essential skill to pick up.

"LFM->TEA BJCC prog. Must have a HR degree and 2+ years of experience in a verifiable HR position"

[NanaWiloh]

This is what we call making a mountain out of a mole hill. Its very simple dont be a jerk and dont abuse the in game tools provided to deal with actual issues.

This thread is nothing but bait at the end of the day.

[Kuya420]

If you're worried about rules changing so you have to speak to people politely, it really says more about you.

its not even that, some people cant even take constructive criticism hence the "you dont pay my sub" types, theres a reason mentors general have stopped talking, there was a rule change awhile back that was similar to this one where you could also be reported

they are, little by little, making the game casual, and soft skin friendly, if you dont know a mechanic or are new to something, you should be the one to speak up, especially if you know that you are constantly getting hit by stuff, theres no way you dont know that your own health is going down, someone else shouldnt have to point that out, and thats the main problem with rules that silence others from being able to point out, in even nice ways, mistakes that others are making

tanks are constantly watching the positions of themselves, the boss, and their teams
healers are constantly watching the tanks positions, and the health bars as well as the boss
dps should be keeping an eye on the tank and boss and a lot have positionals they have to worry about too for max damage

[Claire_Pendragon]

If you're worried about rules changing so you have to speak to people politely, it really says more about you.

Isnt this statement against the ToS?