Extreme over correction in ToS? New ToS is going to kill pugging

[CaptainLagbeard]

So are we placing bets yet on how long till MPK gets a ban under the new ToS?

Thinking about it, I kind of wonder what exactly constitutes a MPK... Because one scenario that would definitely be possible to happen is having someone lower level end up running into an AoE of a max level mob and getting one-shotted... Or if you had mobs that happen to use AoE spawning near gathering nodes, could fighting in such a situation risk getting hit by a report...

[NanaWiloh]

I feel slightly concerned about how they determine what's considered "obstructing gameplay" because I've already encountered instances of people intentionally letting themselves be killed by hunt marks to get others punished for "griefing".

Plus there was that whole fiasco with someone on AetherDC purposefully despawning the SS rank minions to anger people but the GMs somehow couldn't tell that a level 4 BLU repeatedly self-destructing on level 80 enemies wasn't a deliberate act of griefing.

No doubt needs to address amongest other matters involving Hunts.

[Izscha]

Not a surprise for me, and it's clearly open to all sort of abuse but i will wait and see how it really work out in the end.
But if everything that is written is enforced, you can be sure that i would never ever help anyone else doing casual content in PF again.

[LaughingBanana]

Do people really get banned from providing advice/asking properly or is all the "Oh No, Now I'm Gonna Be Banned if I Do This or That" are just mostly imagined hypothetical scenarios?

[Jojoya]

Do people really get banned from providing advice/asking properly or is all the "Oh No, Now I'm Gonna Be Banned if I Do This or That" are just mostly imagined hypothetical scenarios?

They've been banned for doing it in the wrong fashion (such as the examples listed) but it still doesn't happen nearly as often as some want you to think.

Most of what's going on here is overreaction. Outside of the changes related to use of PF and selling clears/loot, there's really not anything new there. Harassment, purchase of houses for resell, monster player kills, griefing tactics, etc. were prohibited all along. They've made the policy examples more specific for clarity's sake because there was way too much "It's not specifically stated in the TOS so I can do what I want" going on.

People who were inclined to report stuff will continue to do it. People who were inclined to shrug stuff off will continue to shrug it off. People who delight in creating trouble and drama will continue to do it and hope that targeted players will be in the latter category instead of the former, or may choose to nitpick as the former to cause the drama and trouble.

One thing I hope that players are catching onto is the repeated use of "action may be taken against a player even if a report has not been filed". Basically it's a warning that if you make a report against another player, your own actions and behavior may come under scrutiny during the investigation. If you're found to have engaged in prohibited activity yourself, you may be the one having action taken against your account.

In other words, don't file reports just for the sake of trying to get others in trouble because that trouble may end up in your lap. Report because the other player's actions have gone beyond what is reasonable.

[Ronduwil]

1. Expressions that compel a playing style
If someone hops into a PF and plays as pure healer and you call them out on it, you can now get banned for it. This is insane, I don't want a pure healer in my party. It's not even possible to clear with a pure healer on week 1.

I doubt pure healers are even pugging week 1. They're either in trusts at that point, or they're pugging via the duty finder. This is effectively a strawman because the scenario you're complaining about doesn't even exist. We all know that this is most likely about compelling wall to wall pulling.

2. Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
What? Now I can't kick players that join a part 3 prog party if they're still stuck on part 1? What if the person accidentally joined a part 3 party and thought it was fresh prog? Am I going to get banned for asking them if they know how to do part 2?

In what way is that an example of "unilaterally excluding someone from the game?" The fact that they just need to progress some bosses before they can join your party indicates that they're not unilaterally excluded. "No lalas or bards" is the kind of crap they're talking about. Once again, you've twisted their words to create a strawman.

3. Expressions that provoke or belittle another person, such as excessive criticism, negation/ridicule
More specifically `"It's [player name]'s fault that we wiped"`. I guess it's now illegal to point out what caused a wipe the previous pull in a prog party. Have fun progressing on mechanics like light rampant where it's extremely difficult to find out why there was a wipe without another person's pov.

The key words here are "excessive," "negation," and "ridicule." Pointing out what caused a wipe is criticism, but it isn't excessive. Just don't be a jerk, and you'll be fine. You're claiming that all criticism is banned, but that's not what they said at all. Don't mock people, and be constructive with your criticism.

[Jijifli]

In what way is that an example of "unilaterally excluding someone from the game?" The fact that they just need to progress some bosses before they can join your party indicates that they're not unilaterally excluded. "No lalas or bards" is the kind of crap they're talking about. Once again, you've twisted their words to create a strawman.


The key words here are "excessive," "negation," and "ridicule." Pointing out what caused a wipe is criticism, but it isn't excessive. Just don't be a jerk, and you'll be fine. You're claiming that all criticism is banned, but that's not what they said at all. Don't mock people, and be constructive with your criticism.

I just wanna focus on these two fronts specifically. I won't touch the first one cuz you're... most likely right. Though, there's kinda a problem if I'm actually agreeing with MPK.

The second point however, I do need to bring something up. The game fully does allow me the right and ability in my PF to deny a job. Such as BRD. You're mostly right on the statement, someone joining into my phase 3 party without even finishing phase 1 and causing trouble for everyone because of it is its own stated ToS breaking, so that will still be perfectly fine. However, denying a class isn't, unless Square wishes to take that ability away from me personally in the PF. It's my party, I can decide what classes I want, and you are free of your opinion to not like it and not join, no?

And the last point, the examples literally have an example of pointing out the wipe. And I feel like that's a problem. If I say "Hey [player] you're an idiot kys you can't do this mechanic" you are 100% right don't ever do that. But if I end up having to eventually say "We're at 7 wipes because [Player] won't do orbs" in my emerald EX farm party, I don't think that should be bannable. I'm pointing out why we're stuck on the first mechanic in a farm party, because there's clearly being an outlier that needs to be addressed lest we got for an 8th instant wipe.

That's on top of the fact some players just... I really don't want it to come off as an insult, don't sue me, but... slow. Some don't realize the deaths are because they are the one doing the mechanic incorrectly. And sometimes, that does mean you need to pull them to the side and give them extra assistance, even if it might seem "excessive" because, sometimes, players need that to hammer it in. I remember an AST in Ruby EX who just couldn't understand for a while they were doing the first mechanic wrong (the bait then moving aoe's). It took multiple explanations, some attempts not even asking first if he wanted it or needed a reminder first. Eventually he started getting it on where he was going wrong, and I think by the 6th pull, he managed to do it without dying, and from there he was pretty good at it. But by the rulings, if he decided instead to file a report, I would have received punishment, because I gave him advice, sometimes without his consent, multiple times.

And that's a concern. Because I feel knowing my assistance for that absolutely wonderful AST could have easily resulted in a ban, and having no idea who the other person on the other side of the screen is and how report happy they might be, if I was thrown into this same scenario now I wouldn't feel safe giving squat for information, for fear of them taking it as a personal attack, even if they asked for it (Some have. Can't risk that.)

edit: I'm also going to at least not pretend these are new. I love that there are examples now. I'm just concerned, knowing this whole time I could have been gone, permanently, if I simply just tried to help the wrong person.

I feel like it's a fantasy land scenario because the duty finder usually won't even let you queue for for duties unless your gear is viable. If the party leader is turning the "no minimum item level" option on in their run, that's on them, not on the player who joined in inferior gear.

Also I just feel like pointing this out. You can queue in with broken gear. You can queue into (60 or lower) very easily with craft/gather statted gear. I've even seen wonderful stories of people in expert roulette managing in with level 60 weapons, which would put their output at a huge disadvantaged, but the game said they had the ilvl.

[Gameovers]

TOS is calling me but don’t know what
TOS is talking but don’t know who
TOS is calling me more is more
NOONE STOPS LIMAS BEATS!!!!


You never see me run
and I WON'T SURRENDER!

TOS can't stop the BEAT.

[Shin96]

Fair point. Personally, if you want to be on the safe side.. just don't say anything at all.

Will you feel lonely? At times yes you will. But you'll be on the safe side; that said, this sensitive approach isn't going to make things better. You should be allowed to speak out on issues when someones is blatantly lazy when they play. All of us have this concept called time and some things don't have to be painfully slow. Be a contributor, not a burden. Is my take on it.

Perhaps you are allowed to say something but the ToS are so vague it's better to not say anything at all.

[Nafreyu]

Square's new ToS is going to absolutely kill pugging next tier. Let's take a look at some of their prohibited behaviors and provide examples on how this is going to kill pugging.

1. Expressions that compel a playing style
If someone hops into a PF and plays as pure healer and you call them out on it, you can now get banned for it. This is insane, I don't want a pure healer in my party. It's not even possible to clear with a pure healer on week 1.


2. Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
What? Now I can't kick players that join a part 3 prog party if they're still stuck on part 1? What if the person accidentally joined a part 3 party and thought it was fresh prog? Am I going to get banned for asking them if they know how to do part 2?

3. Expressions that provoke or belittle another person, such as excessive criticism, negation/ridicule
More specifically `"It's [player name]'s fault that we wiped"`. I guess it's now illegal to point out what caused a wipe the previous pull in a prog party. Have fun progressing on mechanics like light rampant where it's extremely difficult to find out why there was a wipe without another person's pov.

Link: https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

There's a way to say all that without coming across as an asshat too.