Extreme over correction in ToS? New ToS is going to kill pugging

[Ronduwil]

Hey man I'm just posting what the support guy told me. Do with that what you will.

You're posting what the support guy told you prior to yesterday, when they updated the ToS. That's why he's telling you to read the new ToS. Note the "we will see where this goes," in the support rep's reply. Now we've seen where it went. Keep skirting the edges of propriety at your own peril.

[Ronduwil]

I kind of feel like doing that should fall under the category of "obstruction of play", as it is genuinely obstructing several other people's gameplay as they can't get further into the MSQ because people are blocking the trials.

I feel like it's a fantasy land scenario because the duty finder usually won't even let you queue for for duties unless your gear is viable. If the party leader is turning the "no minimum item level" option on in their run, that's on them, not on the player who joined in inferior gear.

[lezard21]

I feel like it's a fantasy land scenario because the duty finder usually won't even let you queue for for duties unless your gear is viable. If the party leader is turning the "no minimum item level" option on in their run, that's on them, not on the player who joined in inferior gear.

You can queue with ilevel appropiate gear, and then switch it when the queue pops and get into the instance with your lower than minimum ilevel gear.

The opposite of that is what people that force Crystal Tower raids do, they remove gear pieces to reduce their ilevel forcing Alliance Roulette to be Crystal Tower, and then reequip them when the queue pops.

[Jijifli]

In what way is that an example of "unilaterally excluding someone from the game?" The fact that they just need to progress some bosses before they can join your party indicates that they're not unilaterally excluded. "No lalas or bards" is the kind of crap they're talking about. Once again, you've twisted their words to create a strawman.


The key words here are "excessive," "negation," and "ridicule." Pointing out what caused a wipe is criticism, but it isn't excessive. Just don't be a jerk, and you'll be fine. You're claiming that all criticism is banned, but that's not what they said at all. Don't mock people, and be constructive with your criticism.

I just wanna focus on these two fronts specifically. I won't touch the first one cuz you're... most likely right. Though, there's kinda a problem if I'm actually agreeing with MPK.

The second point however, I do need to bring something up. The game fully does allow me the right and ability in my PF to deny a job. Such as BRD. You're mostly right on the statement, someone joining into my phase 3 party without even finishing phase 1 and causing trouble for everyone because of it is its own stated ToS breaking, so that will still be perfectly fine. However, denying a class isn't, unless Square wishes to take that ability away from me personally in the PF. It's my party, I can decide what classes I want, and you are free of your opinion to not like it and not join, no?

And the last point, the examples literally have an example of pointing out the wipe. And I feel like that's a problem. If I say "Hey [player] you're an idiot kys you can't do this mechanic" you are 100% right don't ever do that. But if I end up having to eventually say "We're at 7 wipes because [Player] won't do orbs" in my emerald EX farm party, I don't think that should be bannable. I'm pointing out why we're stuck on the first mechanic in a farm party, because there's clearly being an outlier that needs to be addressed lest we got for an 8th instant wipe.

That's on top of the fact some players just... I really don't want it to come off as an insult, don't sue me, but... slow. Some don't realize the deaths are because they are the one doing the mechanic incorrectly. And sometimes, that does mean you need to pull them to the side and give them extra assistance, even if it might seem "excessive" because, sometimes, players need that to hammer it in. I remember an AST in Ruby EX who just couldn't understand for a while they were doing the first mechanic wrong (the bait then moving aoe's). It took multiple explanations, some attempts not even asking first if he wanted it or needed a reminder first. Eventually he started getting it on where he was going wrong, and I think by the 6th pull, he managed to do it without dying, and from there he was pretty good at it. But by the rulings, if he decided instead to file a report, I would have received punishment, because I gave him advice, sometimes without his consent, multiple times.

And that's a concern. Because I feel knowing my assistance for that absolutely wonderful AST could have easily resulted in a ban, and having no idea who the other person on the other side of the screen is and how report happy they might be, if I was thrown into this same scenario now I wouldn't feel safe giving squat for information, for fear of them taking it as a personal attack, even if they asked for it (Some have. Can't risk that.)

edit: I'm also going to at least not pretend these are new. I love that there are examples now. I'm just concerned, knowing this whole time I could have been gone, permanently, if I simply just tried to help the wrong person.

I feel like it's a fantasy land scenario because the duty finder usually won't even let you queue for for duties unless your gear is viable. If the party leader is turning the "no minimum item level" option on in their run, that's on them, not on the player who joined in inferior gear.

Also I just feel like pointing this out. You can queue in with broken gear. You can queue into (60 or lower) very easily with craft/gather statted gear. I've even seen wonderful stories of people in expert roulette managing in with level 60 weapons, which would put their output at a huge disadvantaged, but the game said they had the ilvl.

[Gameovers]

TOS is calling me but don’t know what
TOS is talking but don’t know who
TOS is calling me more is more
NOONE STOPS LIMAS BEATS!!!!


You never see me run
and I WON'T SURRENDER!

TOS can't stop the BEAT.

[Shin96]

Fair point. Personally, if you want to be on the safe side.. just don't say anything at all.

Will you feel lonely? At times yes you will. But you'll be on the safe side; that said, this sensitive approach isn't going to make things better. You should be allowed to speak out on issues when someones is blatantly lazy when they play. All of us have this concept called time and some things don't have to be painfully slow. Be a contributor, not a burden. Is my take on it.

Perhaps you are allowed to say something but the ToS are so vague it's better to not say anything at all.

[CaptainLagbeard]

I feel like it's a fantasy land scenario because the duty finder usually won't even let you queue for for duties unless your gear is viable. If the party leader is turning the "no minimum item level" option on in their run, that's on them, not on the player who joined in inferior gear.

Talking about the Normal/Hard difficulty trials, that you have to do as a part of the MSQ.
Saying that if someone is preventing people from progressing through the MSQ by failing them constantly, across several groups, because they just don't have the requirements to actually do the duty. That should count as Obstruction of Play as it is actually preventing people from playing the game.

[Kaurhz]

Then one person replies "No, I'm not ok with that" and you can't force him to do it your way nor can you kick him cause ban

Except this rule has existed for a very long time in the form of a text "Unjustified usage of vote dismiss is a punishable act" - They've merely clarified what in these cases would constitute as unjustified. Furthermore, this does not preclude the validity of kicking someone for a difference in playstyle, which has on several occasions been stated as OK.

The problem is, if something like that is going wrong, you don't really have the time to type it out as you're reacting to the chaos.

"tank can you please turn on tank stance so I don't get autoed" gets you autoed to death before they finish reading it.
"please stack with me we need to share the damage to survive" and the castbar finishes as you hit enter.

usually there's time for "TANK STANCE!" or "STACK!" and no one should be offended by basic mechanic callouts

Saying "I don't need need to save tank lb3 for Alexander/omega/ultima/SoS" isn't an opinion, it's just flat-out wrong. This game has binary conditions for a LOT of its mechanics and clear conditions, and we don't need to give the false illusion that there's other options for these things.

If you honestly think that saying "Stack!", or "Tank Stance" is sufficient enough as to get you a genuine warning from the result of a report then I really don't know what to tell you other than don't overexaggerate, there's limits to this and that was breached. Their entire example goes on to say how something should be done, whilst then subsequently dismissing the opinion, and imposing a playstyle. I feel like the only thing you've taken from that example is "Duty" and "action/ability", whilst ignoring the rest of the context.

I'm pretty sure something would kick in when someone submits a report, and the only pretext is "Stack" - Reasonably anyone would infer that to be - "Oh they were in the middle of a pull so the need for being brief was essential". That's up to the integrity of the GM whether that would warrant a sanction or not.

I feel like people are immediately drawn to the illusion that a report, will always result in a ban or sanction...

In fact, if you look at some of the archives for the very page, you'll find many of these rules were already in effect, with the only difference being additions to clarity so folk know what constitutes as a violation of said rule/clause.

[Darkobra]

No offense but people who don't raid shouldn't have an opinion on this. They don't understand the hardships in pugging and progging in a pug.

If you were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't need to pug. You'd be in a static.
If you were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't be getting angry at one player's mistakes because the rest of you can manage to recover.
If you were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't be worried about being banned over your own behaviour.

Based on this, maybe the problem really is you?

[Izscha]

If you were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't need to pug. You'd be in a static.
If you were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't be getting angry at one player's mistakes because the rest of you can manage to recover.
If you were as good as you think you are, you wouldn't be worried about being banned over your own behaviour.

Based on this, maybe the problem really is you?

It's so much nonsense in so little words.

1. You can have a static and doing pug on the side the rest of the week
2. Some mecanics instantly kills the whole party if done wrong, and you can't do anything about it no matter how good you are, it's a group thing if one is terrible it can affect the whole party.
3. It doesn't even make any sense.