Can SQ-EN draw a line in the sand w/ 3rd Parties?

[EnigmaticDodo]

Title.

I've been watching streamers do high end stuff and I see and hear programs announcing mechanics before they even exist on screen. Certain mechanics are randomized in the order they will occur and people are reacting to them far in advance.

Folks try to rationalize this as ok by saying, 'oh it's no different than having your raid lead call it', but let me counter with this; does your raid lead have precognition and can tell the order of random mechanics before they happen all the time? If not, then you're cheating. Plain and simple.

Reject me, oh forums mine.

Edit extra mentions:
This thread isn't just about Cact. I'm talking anything that is crossing the line.

There exists a program that is capable of making it so your ping is ready as 0 or negative, prevents you from being animation locked, and allows you to triple weave without issue, when you normally cant. Won't name it, but it exists.

Edit with highlights:

I will add to this:

• Your raid leader can make mistakes.
• Your raid leader cannot give your entire party individual callouts per your role in the mechanic.
• Your raid leader cannot give you callouts faster than the mechanic's in-game visual cues or with zero delay.

Stop rationalizing it and own it. You're using it to make the game easier.

Cactbot can print large, bolded instructions directly to your screen the milisecond an ability is telegraphed (and sometimes before it's even telegraphed clientside), with customized text that doesn't just label the ability, but gives you personalized instructions on how to solve the mechanic. This isn't even in the same universe as traditional shotcalling in some encounters.

It can also be used to draw a timeline on your screen, showing you exact times until upcoming abilities come out.

(Context for below: Someone questioned what random mechanics exist...)

My most memorable example was the Optical Sight patterns in A11S, wherein ACT could detect and call the mechanic well before it was actually telegraphed on the client. There're other RNG mechanics that send typically invisible information to the client ahead of time, but I don't know them all offhand because I don't use Cactbot.

In the case of Nael quotes, learning to parse those quotes mentally is a fundamental part of the fights design, so it's lame when it's trivialized to a robot saying "out, stack, in " the literal millisecond the quote reaches the client. No matter how good a person becomes at calling mechanics, they will never achieve a near 0ms response time and they will make occasional mistakes.

There're also additional plugins that allow you to actually automatically trigger button inputs based on information parsed from the client; This is how the Gaol plugin in UWU works, which automatically marks players with numbers.

[Nibelung_Valesti]

Title.

I've been watching streamers do high end stuff and I see and hear programs announcing mechanics before they even exist on screen. Certain mechanics are randomized in the order they will occur and people are reacting to them far in advance.

Folks try to rationalize this as ok by saying, 'oh it's no different than having your raid lead call it', but let me counter with this; does your raid lead have precognition and can tell the order of things before they happen all the time? If not, then you're cheating. Plain and simple.

Reject me, oh forums mine.

I agree, this needs to go and be banned right now before this turns into another wow fiasco for the community.

[Hanayumi]

I mean you can find full on lists of mechanics, so you "can" actually call out mechanics ahead of time. Even bosses with RNG still follow a direct pattern, it just turns into a which pattern they decide to do Pattern A, Pattern B, Pattern C, kind of deal. And yes for the most part Devs have already drawn a line and that was with 3rd party systems that literally display AoE telegrams or safe spots and have banned a few caught for using them back in the day (though I recall none being perma.) But yeah that's pretty much the big NO NO with Devs, its also why we got the lock down on markers cause one of those systems could switch out markers mid fight making it super easy on where to stand and such.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Title.

I've been watching streamers do high end stuff and I see and hear programs announcing mechanics before they even exist on screen. Certain mechanics are randomized in the order they will occur and people are reacting to them far in advance.

Folks try to rationalize this as ok by saying, 'oh it's no different than having your raid lead call it', but let me counter with this; does your raid lead have precognition and can tell the order of random mechanics before they happen all the time? If not, then you're cheating. Plain and simple.

Reject me, oh forums mine.

They already did draw a line in the sand tho?

They expressly forbid them. They aren't going to install software that scans your pc (illegal), and they aren't going to hunt down people outside the game barring specific circumstances.

[Nibelung_Valesti]

Specifically Echo and limit coming from WoW raiding scene in world first.
They are using openly third-party tools on stream.

[OranKells]

If SE or any studio had the capacity to simply scan your computer and lock you out or ban you for content it deemed contraband would be a Orwellian nightmare even in the best of intentions.

No they can't just "scan for hacks" there is this concept privacy and seeing that 90% of mods work client side they would be very hard to see short of you streaming it live. It's also not illegal to have 3rd party software. Even using mods itself while against the ToS isn't actually illegal. You're not gonna be arrested and sent to prison. Botting and actually cheating is seen server side and there is a nebulous and poorly understood special task force that handles some of that although its mostly anti RMT.

I'll grant you though. Streaming a raid with a 3rd party tool announcing mechanics is dancing on the line of acceptable behavior and probably shouldn't be allowed. The don't ask don't tell de facto policy shouldn't tolerate something so blatant.

[LittleImp]

It's illegal to have a program that scans for hacks? Don't many other games do this....?

In certain regions, certain styles of anti-cheat are indeed illegal. SE isn't going to suspend service in those regions just to chase down a (mostly) harmless piece of software.

Do you actively participate in the kind of content where this kind of software is frequently applied? I can agree that Cactbot is essentially cheating, but I'm curious about the source of your interest.

[KageTokage]

It's illegal to have a program that scans for hacks? Don't many other games do this....?

They do, but said programs tend to stop only the most rudimentary third party apps and can be easily worked around if they have a semi-competent developer.

Gameguard is the one I see most frequently but all of the games I've played that used it still had issues with hackers/bots ranging from minor to extreme.

[Momo_Kozuki]

It's illegal to have a program that scans for hacks? Don't many other games do this....?

Many does, and some suffer performance decline because of these anti-cheat that doesn't prevent cheating at all.


For example, to this day, Blade and Soul's anti-cheat still crash people's client for using unauthorized programs whenever a massive lag spike happens in a 12-man raid. The thing is that "unauthorized programs" here means "too many button input at once", which Blade and Soul is very infamous for, whether you use a mouse macro or just the in-game Simple mode. Heck, it even crashes people for manual input.

[Jojoya]

Title.

I've been watching streamers do high end stuff and I see and hear programs announcing mechanics before they even exist on screen. Certain mechanics are randomized in the order they will occur and people are reacting to them far in advance.

Folks try to rationalize this as ok by saying, 'oh it's no different than having your raid lead call it', but let me counter with this; does your raid lead have precognition and can tell the order of random mechanics before they happen all the time? If not, then you're cheating. Plain and simple.

Reject me, oh forums mine.

What totally random mechanics would those be? Most mechanics come in a a very predictable order once you've done a fight a few times.

When the mechanics are actually random, how often are they not preceded by audio/visual cues that a specific mechanic is coming in a few seconds, giving a party leader time for a quick call out?

SE's been pretty clear on the third party tool policy. While prohibited in general, they aren't going to take action against those using tools solely to customize UI elements.

If you're seeing things in streams that aren't UI customizations, report it. Keep in mind that a parser is a customization of the battle log, a UI element. But if you're seeing things like mechanic countdown displays or "go here" arrows, those are outside what the UI provides and should be reported.