Predict the endwalker healing meta!

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

SGE has weaker shields (you could use Zoe and hope for a crit, but you can't plan around RNG) and while shields being instant is nice, it's also not the huge advantage you think it is, especially considering that shields are supposed to be planned and are something you can cast well in advance.

Just wanna point that Zoe works on spells, so in theory at least it's notable especially for buffing Pneuma's healing component up to 800p at 25y range. It's actually pretty insane in addition to the spell being multifunctional at its core.

At least that's what I'd use Zoe for instead of shielding, considering shielding has been more on niche side of spectrum in term of usage.

[rewd]

Potencies are all we have to compare them but just by looking at the skills SGE seems to have an edge in a lot of aspects, quick examples are physis vs whispering dawn in which physis is a 20% stronger, the existence of physis 2 and how it buffs ogcds something Sch does not have that early and by when it gets one Sge unlocks a 20% buff too, Zoe is far more versatile than deplo as it not only can be used to put a bigger shield with prognosis than anything Sch can put without relying on buffs and crits but also can be used with pneuma for an 800 potency heal that happens to be dps neutral (and gain in AoE), Haima as a source of single target shielding far more consistent than seraphic veil and Painhaima by its nature of shielding first and healing second has an easier time to not waste potential than Consolation, etc...

Sch shielding also does not have better numbers unless you go to suboptimal routes (basically, recitation and buff it to the extreme), Succor is worth 320 potency shield in EW which is the same as E!Prognosis and both Adlo and E!Diagnosis are clones, difference being that if you dont crit and spread an adlo you'd spread a 540 potency shield vs Zoe + E!Prognosis which is worth 640, Scholar could in theory surpass Sge's numbers if they go full protraction+recitation+fey illum+dissipation but at least 3 of those 4 skills will be used in uptime so unless a cheese strat needs it that would be overkill and poorly efficient and if we take attacks that deal multiple hits panhaima + Zoe E!prognosis alone can be better than anything Sch can throw

Physis II only works on spells, not abilities. Some SGE skills are more powerful, some SCH skills are more powerful, so there's no clear advantage for SGE.

If you have to keep moving the goalposts to prove that SCH is not a better shield healer (or that it has better better numbers, at least), you are not helping your case. Shielding could already be considered "suboptimal" and having to use skills to enhance your skills doesn't take anything away from SCH's power (besides, SGE does the same with Zoe)

[WaxSw]

Physis II only works on spells, not abilities. Some SGE skills are more powerful, some SCH skills are more powerful, so there's no clear advantage for SGE.

If you have to keep moving the goalposts to prove that SCH is not a better shield healer (or that it has better better numbers, at least), you are not helping your case. Shielding could already be considered "suboptimal" and having to use skills to enhance your skills doesn't take anything away from SCH's power (besides, SGE does the same with Zoe)

True about physis 2, I'll edit that

However I dont think I'm moving goalposts about Sch, Im just analyzing it case to case. GCD wise Sch has to use more key tools that harm its dps or leave it with less optimal heals than Sge to matchup and surpass its shielding potential, at a base level of no buffs both shield the same (320 potency shield) however Sge's shield is instacast while Sch one needs to be casted, with "low" investment Sge takes the crown as ZoE+E!Prognosis is better of an AoE Shield than the biggest Shield Sch can use with the same level of investment Deplo+Adlo (640 potency shield vs 540) potency, if we go into higher investment then Sch becomes better gcd wise for a single hit but keeps being worse at multihits even with consolation because the nature of how haima and panhaima works. When the two are almost identical at 0 investement, Sage is stronger at low investment (the 2 more common cases) and only at an investment so high it becomes suboptimal outside stuff like cheese strats and only if there is no multihits Sch takes the lead I dont think we have the ground to say Sch is a better shielder, especially when efficiency wise Sge has better tools for the shielding.

Some SGE skills are more powerful, some SCH skills are more powerful, so there's no clear advantage for SGE.

I disagree, Sch has neat tools and high heal power but in raw healing capabilities doesn't have as many as Sge giving the latter an edge and if we consider efficiency is not even a contest (Sch has 9 ogcd heals + embrace and out of those 9 4 are dps losses unless recitation is used, in which case only 2 vs Sge which has 11 dps neutral heals + kardia), for every heal or cooldown Sch has and its stronger you can name one in Sge's toolkit that is either stronger than its Sch counterpart, more efficient and/or more versatile, quick examples physis vs whispering dawn, Zoe vs Deplo, all the non recitation aetherflow heals vs addersgall heals...

[rewd]

True about physis 2, I'll edit that

snip

This would be a perfectly valid point if SCH needed more tools to match what SGE does, but SCH can use more tools and achieve greater results. You are also ignoring the fact that Zoe's "versatility" is actually a problem, because Deployment will always be available when you need it, but Zoe has other uses, and one (Pneuma) happens to be an amazing one. You are talking about DPS losses, efficiency and subotimal usages, but SGE is the healer that is hurt the most by giving up a damage GCD (330 DPS loss and 170 heal loss) and you are giving up a zoe'd Pneuma which might have important consequences.

On the other hand, SCH has four different skills it can use to boost shields, which means you don't even have to necessarily use Recitation and that something is always available.

I disagree, Sch has neat tools and high heal power but in raw healing capabilities doesn't have as many as Sge giving the latter an edge and if we consider efficiency is not even a contest (Sch has 9 ogcd heals + embrace and out of those 9 4 are dps losses unless recitation is used, in which case only 2 vs Sge which has 11 dps neutral heals + kardia), for every heal or cooldown Sch has and its stronger you can name one in Sge's toolkit that is either stronger than its Sch counterpart, more efficient and/or more versatile, quick examples physis vs whispering dawn, Zoe vs Deplo, all the non recitation aetherflow heals vs addersgall heals...

SGE is more efficient (but this was never the topic), but it does not have higher raw healing capabilities, especially considering how Addersgall works, which gives less flexibility than Aetherflow.

Dawn is less powerful than Physis, but more flexible because it can reach people SGE can't reach. Blessing is on paper stronger than Holos but it will probably end up having the same potency because of pet scaling (unless it is even closer to 1:1 than it seems now). Still, Blessing is again more flexible because of the fairy. Then we can compare Lustrate and Druochole which are the same skill, but SCH can spam then back to back for some quick spot healing, something SGE can't do unless you store 3 stacks of Addersgall, so less flexibility again. Seraph has more potency than Panhaima (and this is without counting Seraphic Veil). Fey Union only needs 3 ticks to have more potency than Haima (if we want to compare them because level 70 skills). If you want to compare it to Soteria, Union is way, way more flexible. Even when comparing their ST buffs, Protraction is way more flexible/versatile than Krasis. They both increase healing potency (Krasis being more powerful at this), but Protraction also has the cool implication of letting SCH enhance other people's shields (Shake it off, The blackest night, Divine Veil, Celestial Intersection), further cementing it as the better shield healer.

[Bonkleberry]

I am not toouch of an accom

[Bonkleberry]

Ugh... I hit the wrong button on my phone. Please ignore.

[IllyaPrisma]

On the other hand, SCH has four different skills it can use to boost shields.

Protraction also has the cool implication of letting SCH enhance other people's shields (Shake it off, The blackest night, Divine Veil, Celestial Intersection)

Please specify which 4 ways SCH can augment their own shields. The only abilities that they have that actually augment healing are Illumination and Protraction. Recitation guarantees a Crit, (though recitation on Excog or Indom is favorable in nearly every scenario)
Seraph adds an additional shield, so I assume those 4 methods are what you refer to.

SGE has Physis II and Krasis, with both options having higher healing augmentation, albeit a longer CD on Physis II. They have Haima and Panhaima for single target and AoE situations. And of course they have Zoe (in a perfect setting, Zoe would be used with every Pneuma, though this may not be the case). By that logic, SGE has 5 methods of boosting shields.

Also: All of your examples are correct, except Celestial Intersection, which is not affected by the maximum HP of the target (Essential Dignity and Divine Benison do not work this way either). If you are referring to the increase in healing potency of those abilities, Krasis would be more effective for this purpose, specifically with Co-Healer abilities.

[rewd]

Please specify which 4 ways SCH can augment their own shields. The only abilities that they have that actually augment healing are Illumination and Protraction. Recitation guarantees a Crit, (though recitation on Excog or Indom is favorable in nearly every scenario)
Seraph adds an additional shield, so I assume those 4 methods are what you refer to.

SGE has Physis II and Krasis, with both options having higher healing augmentation, albeit a longer CD on Physis II. They have Haima and Panhaima for single target and AoE situations. And of course they have Zoe (in a perfect setting, Zoe would be used with every Pneuma, though this may not be the case). By that logic, SGE has 5 methods of boosting shields.

Also: All of your examples are correct, except Celestial Intersection, which is not affected by the maximum HP of the target (Essential Dignity and Divine Benison do not work this way either). If you are referring to the increase in healing potency of those abilities, Krasis would be more effective for this purpose, specifically with Co-Healer abilities.

Illumination, Protraction, Recitation and Dissipation. Recitation forces a crit and the other 3 skills directly augment the healing potency of your Adlo.

Krasis doesn't work for AoE shields (because unlike SCH you can't deploy a ST shield) but good catch on Physis II, I forgot that one.

The example about Intersection is correct and you already said yourself why so there's no need to explain. We are talking about shields and flexibility, so although Krasis is better when paired with CI specifically, Protraction has the big added benefit of working with CI and shields like Shake and Veil.

Edit: It should already be clear, but that wasn't the logic used (and I don't know why would you think so) so Consolation or Pan-Haima are irrelevant in this context.

[IllyaPrisma]

Illumination, Protraction, Recitation and Dissipation.

Ah Yes, Dissipation, the skill that I use to augment my healing GCDs by crippling my HPS for 30 seconds. I am all about the sheer amount of anti-synergy in SCHs kit. I can count on one hand the number of times I have used Dissipation for the purpose of larger shield GCDs. None the less, I suppose that counts...

But that just means both SGE and SCH have 5 forms of shielding augmentation. SCH may have Deploy, but they also retain their absolutely horrid GCD sustain. In terms of potential Burst Healing and Sustained GCD Healing, SGE is the clear winner. This isn't necessarily an issue, since SGE and SCH branch off into Pure Healing/Damage and Extra Utility respectively.

Back to the very original comment that I made regarding healer meta at the start of the expansion, I believe SGE will be favorable due it's prog friendly kit and high damage output. Crit buffs at the start of the expansion see much less value, dampening Chain Stratagems impact. Unless Expedient becomes this godly CD (which it very well may), I see SGE having the edge over SCH.

[Grimoire-M]

Being better at shields and mitigation when item level makes them optional means they’re useless edges. Arguing about Sage vs Scholar is like arguing about Eos vs Selene. Giving yourself and your cohealer more free throughput especially at the rate of control and flexibility Physis II, Pneuma, Haima, Panhaima, and Cardia have beats everything the fairy can do combined. Chain, Expedient and Baby Thrill doesn’t make up for that. Sage is going to be the strongest healer we’ve had to date. It’s AST vs SCH for second place, and self aware WHM mains crying in a corner.