Dark Knight Change discussion

[Crimsonrock]

Most of the tank receive buffs especially self regen in EW. PLD have Intervention, Holy sheltron (both have 250 cure potency for 12 sec, not sure is 250 every 3 with 12 sec or 250 over 12 sec), while Intervention had 10% damage mitigation every 10 sec with is already better than oblation, sheltron had upgrade to 8 sec blockinhg attack plus 4 sec 15% mitigation plus self healing, which could possible on par with TBN with no penalty. PLD also had burst window with dots that come right after a total of 1600 cure potency every minute. (beside self healing, DK might still able to catch up by popping the BW equilibrium, living shadow and shadowbringer at the same time but living shadow is 2 min cooldown which hard to conduct). I won't say too much about PLD since is the poster of EW so I ok with PLD op changing.

For GNB, Yes I agree with extra self healing, and 2 charge of Aurora and a bit self healing from upgraded version of heart of stone, Heart of Corundum (HOC) is what they received.
DK had souleater (300 cure potency), Abyssal Drain (200 cure potency, a lot for pulling packs), while Aurora is a 1200 potency every min (2400 for 36 sec in 2 charge) and Brutal Shell (200 cure potency plus shield) with a bit of self healing form HOC, That's already more than DK while fighting boss beside pulling packs. And it you count mitigation, GNB is not very fall behind a lot from DK in terms of mitigation, not to mention GNB position is a dps tank. Yes DK had TBN, but we don't pop it every 15 second as what I mentioned before. With these, GNB is almost reaching somewhere close to DK in term of damage mitigation (which DK suppose to be more superior compare to other tank), plus more self healing than DK in some situation, and already a higher dps tank than other tanks. This already put DK in a rather disadvantage position. People say GNB is the less favorite tank for healer to group in duty route (just behind DK). But this will likely to change once EW release.

As for warrior, yea I agree with the self healing part, since WAR rely heavily on self healing apart for mitigation, but since they change other ability also so I not quite sure how will it work in EW also.

[Crimsonrock]

The way %mitigation works is that it gets less effective the more you stack them.
using Rampart will reduce damage by 20%
using Shadow Wall will reduce damage by 30%
using both Rampart and Shadow wall will reduce damage by 44%

Shields on the other hand do not have this disadvantage (As long as they don't overwrite each other).
The best damage reduction is: shield + %mitigation. Which DRK can do with TBN + any %mitigation.

The downside is that TBN comes at a cost (3000 MP). If it doesn't' break, it's a DPS loss for DRK.
If DRK cannot get TBN to break, they will stop using it for said mechanic == DRK has the least %mitigation compared to other tanks after EW updates.

Other tanks can use long CD %mitigation alongside the short CD mitigation which also has added %mitigation after EW.

Migration-wise, this makes DRK the best tank for situations where TBN breaks, but the worst tank if their TBN doesn't break. Really wish they remove the cost on TBN.

Yup I agree with TBN part. Don't know how people get a 35% damage absorb for TBN and oblation, both are different type of mitigation. And we need the shield to break in time so we unlikely to pop TBN with other mitigations together unless the boss damage is pretty high.

[Crimsonrock]

PLD needed the extra self-heals because it has been the one tank that, after mitigation and self-heals, had the lowest health even using Sheltron regularly, unless they used Clemency which is not done by most tanks because it's a GCD.

GNB needed these extra heals to be on the same level as the other tanks, because although a bit better than PLD in a party, it has been one of the hardest tanks to solo on. A PLD can self-heal as much as it likes, a WAR can use its abundance of self-heals including its combo and 3 healing abilities, a DRK can TBN endlessly, but for GNB to do the same it would have to spam Keen Edge and Brutal Shell, denting the damage a lot. Aurora doesn't compare to a GCD heal, 3 healing abilities or a 25% health shield on a 15 sec cooldown.

Bloodwhetting on WAR is a bit of a nerf. While in ShB you can combine Nascent Flash with Fell Cleaves or Inner Chaos for 590 or 920 potency, in EW it will be a fixed 400 potency heal which is still lower than the new potency of those actions. It will probably even out though because sometimes those actions are not available. Shake It Off will heal and Bloodwhetting reduces damage, so may make up for it a bit too.

Most of the tank receive buffs especially self regen in EW. PLD have Intervention, Holy sheltron (both have 250 cure potency for 12 sec, not sure is 250 every 3 with 12 sec or 250 over 12 sec), while Intervention had 10% damage mitigation every 10 sec with is already better than oblation, sheltron had upgrade to 8 sec blockinhg attack plus 4 sec 15% mitigation plus self healing, which could possible on par with TBN with no penalty. PLD also had burst window with dots that come right after a total of 1600 cure potency every minute. (beside self healing, DK might still able to catch up by popping the BW equilibrium, living shadow and shadowbringer at the same time but living shadow is 2 min cooldown which hard to conduct).

I won't say too much about PLD since is the poster of EW so I ok with PLD op changing. And is not ridiculously OP actually.

[Crimsonrock]

PLD needed the extra self-heals because it has been the one tank that, after mitigation and self-heals, had the lowest health even using Sheltron regularly, unless they used Clemency which is not done by most tanks because it's a GCD.

GNB needed these extra heals to be on the same level as the other tanks, because although a bit better than PLD in a party, it has been one of the hardest tanks to solo on. A PLD can self-heal as much as it likes, a WAR can use its abundance of self-heals including its combo and 3 healing abilities, a DRK can TBN endlessly, but for GNB to do the same it would have to spam Keen Edge and Brutal Shell, denting the damage a lot. Aurora doesn't compare to a GCD heal, 3 healing abilities or a 25% health shield on a 15 sec cooldown.

Bloodwhetting on WAR is a bit of a nerf. While in ShB you can combine Nascent Flash with Fell Cleaves or Inner Chaos for 590 or 920 potency, in EW it will be a fixed 400 potency heal which is still lower than the new potency of those actions. It will probably even out though because sometimes those actions are not available. Shake It Off will heal and Bloodwhetting reduces damage, so may make up for it a bit too.

For GNB, Yes I agree with extra self healing, and 2 charge of Aurora and a bit self healing from upgraded version of heart of stone, Heart of Corundum (HOC) is what they received.
DK had souleater (300 cure potency), Abyssal Drain (200 cure potency, a lot for pulling packs), while Aurora is a 1200 potency every min (2400 for 36 sec in 2 charge) and Brutal Shell (200 cure potency plus shield) with a bit of self healing form HOC, That's already more than DK while fighting boss beside pulling packs. And it you count mitigation, GNB is not very fall behind a lot from DK in terms of mitigation, not to mention GNB position is a dps tank. Yes DK had TBN, but we don't pop it every 15 second as what I mentioned before. With these, GNB is almost reaching somewhere close to DK in term of damage mitigation (which DK suppose to be more superior compare to other tank), plus more self healing than DK in some situation, and already a higher dps tank than other tanks. This already put DK in a rather disadvantage position. People say GNB is the less favorite tank for healer to group in duty route (just behind DK). But this will likely to change once EW release.

As for warrior, yea I agree with the self healing part, since WAR rely heavily on self healing apart for mitigation, but since they change other ability also so I not quite sure how will it work in EW also.

[Crimsonrock]

from my perspective dark knight is pretty good just statistically
The Blackest Night was already the best of the short cooldown tank cooldowns. I don't really have developer data but maybe increasing all the other ones was bringing them up to par. shadow wall and rampart are the same as every other tank and dark mind and dark missionary are strong and have a generally shorter cooldown than other tank equivalents and oblation was like here's even more. every other tank got the improvement rolled into their 25s cd, dark knight was the only one that gets to use them together or at different times depending on situation.

The current potencies don't really much either but currently they look to be up there for dps too

My only real problem with dark knight is all the ogc relics of it's original incarnation. Salted Earth, Carve and Spit, Abyssal Drain, Blood Weapon, maybe even more I'm missing
They all kind of suck and they were just altered in a fitting a square peg into a round hole sort of fashion, They also just make the job needlessly over-busy and they keep adding more.

One of the coolest parts of dark knight aesthetic to me was how they are swinging a giant heavy weapon and the main combo shows it. They are actually struggling to maintain balance from the swings. It's a really nice touch
But with this insane flood of OGC dark knights have it's maybe even twitchier than gunbreaker and the animations look ridiculous when constantly broken
Dark Knight should be like reaper is, fairly slow most of the time but every hit has that OOMPH! weight to it

And just a general gripe with all tanks having gap closers being part of dps, simple solution too, minimum range requirement for them to do damage. Can use them whereever you want but if your not far enough they just get you closer. No longer worthwhile to try and force them and they can be used for the utility they're meant for freely

Yup, the magic damage mitigation is powerful, the disadvantage is it squeeze hotbar space. And oblation, a not very usefull mitigation squeeze the hotbar space even more. I rather they add the cold mind into dark missionary, and add useful additional effect into oblation.

I actually ok with salted earth change. I also hope they change Carve and Split, Abyssal Drain and BW.

[Crimsonrock]

I'd just like it to play more like its own thing, rather than edgy warrior.

Yea, initially I don't know why they complained about Dark Arts and say is merely a WAR clone (although DK did function similar to warrior). But after I saw the previous version of dark arts, now I also want to try it and it felts unique compared to other tanks. I hope they change it but not exactly same as how it function like HW/SB, cause my finger will also broke while continuously popping dark arts and we have less hotbar space to space.

Basically all the design idea for dark arts I could think had listed in this thread already. I know my idea is definitely not the best one for DK so I don't mind if you have better idea to share.

[Crimsonrock]

Actually for the dark arts design.

I think can just cast aside the Defensive Dark Arts idea if the developer add some change like give extra damage absorb shield while casting bloodspiller and Quietus and add additional effect like extra mitigation or self HP regen for oblation. This change could quite likely make DK able to compete with other tanks in EW.

After that, they could just make dark arts to empower not just edge of darkness/Flood of Darkness but also empower other Offensive OGCD like plunge, Carve and Split and Abyssal Drain since "Dark Arts potency" and "Dark Arts Affect" were a thing during HW and Stormblood.

With these, I hope they can change the TBN, like not gain dark arts after shield break but gain it immediately after shield fade away. since other tank don't have penalty for their short CD mitigation.

The last idea I could think of is made an additional effect at level 88 or 90 that allows your living shadow also grand you TBN/Oblation when your HP drop to a certain percentage or before the time duration runs out. We Living dead (Our inner anger /hatred as a form of Fray), we get TBN (a manifest of our feeling of guilty as a form of Myste) why not combine it together as a form of living shadow that fight alongside you. (Can forgot about this idea if it sounds too OP to you, this is just a random idea came out from my mind.)

[Hazama999]

Before you read the rest of this comment, a caveat: I don't raid ultimate, savage, hell, don't even do extremes. My issues with DRK as a job stem purely from the entirely subjective feel of the job when I get my hands on it. What follows has absolutely jack to do with balance, or how "well" the job is doing in the meta or anything.

Anyways,

I don't like DRK's current design, and from what I have seen of the media tour info, I don't think I'll like 6.0's version of DRK.
DRK was my main in 3.0 and 4.0. I enjoyed the feel of the job the most in 3.0, and it has been mostly on a bland decline ever since. TBN was the best thing about DRK in 4.0, but that's about it.

As we got closer to 5.0, I remember being excited about being able to summon Fray, so much so that I hadn't really considered the possibility of Fray just being a really fancy DoT. Come 5.0, and that's pretty much what it was. Delirium being used to spam Bloodspiller as you weave oGCDs, TBN granting DA which would be consumed on using "of Shadow" abilities... Did nothing for me. This wasn't exciting, especially because I've simply grown tired of the "now you can do this skill A BUNCH OF TIMES IN A ROW" thing some jobs have going. Anyways, 5.0's DRK didn't really feel fun or satisfying to play, certainly not how it did back in 3.0, and I have to say I do miss some of those old skills. They had some flavor to em. Sole Survivor, Dark Passenger, Low Blow resets... Hell, even the MP drain effect Darkside used to have! And that was such a small thing! It was an inconvenience, being a drain and all, but I think it was not so difficult to manage it. More importantly it was one of the small things which made the job feel distinct to me.

Fast forward to 6.0 and we got a follow up to Salted Earth, Delirium stacks... Fray passives (lmao)?
Far be it from me to call the devs lazy, because I wholeheartedly believe they are incredibly hard-working to a fault. No, this doesn't feel like laziness. This feels like... lack of imagination? I am sure that there's a strong point to be made on behalf of balance and the importance of maintaining DRK "where it is" under the tried and true adage of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

...But where's the punch? Where's the sauce? The flavor?? DRK feels utterly vapid to me.
To me, to me, to me.
I started this comment with a caveat, and have to end it echoing that these are just my thoughts and feelings on it.

[Ottkins]

Feels like DRK drew the short straw.

Odds are I'm switching to WAR or PLD if what we see is what we'll get.

I dunno what they were thinking, but I definitely don't like the idea of being daisy chained to my Simulacrum.

[redheadturk]

I for one like how DRK plays now. I never picked up PLD beyond level 60 because I never got how to work the magic combo which meant for me the way it played just did not flow. DRK prior to 4.0/5.0 just had too many things for me to try to keep track of for it to be enjoyable to play for me. Now, when I don't have to keep up with MP drain beyond TBN, it's in a perfect spot for it to be fun for me to play without it being too busy.