Dark Knight Change discussion

[Hanayumi]

If Pld gets a combo with big flashy swords, Drk could do for a Dark magical counterpart...

[Jeeqbit]

I disagree with your points on TBN. It works now so it will work in EW. In ShB you use TBN if it will break. If it's not breaking, you aren't taking enough damage, so you can use % mitigation instead like Shadow Wall.

Giving DRK a regen (beyond Souleater) would not be balanced because TBN is very powerful and makes some content soloable the way self-heals allow on other tanks.

For OGCD aoe, DRK already has Flood of Shadow and many other aoe abilities, so it doesn't need the OGCD aoe the other tanks got.

Abyssal Drain is supposed to take health from each enemy, so it can heal you to full if there are lots of enemies.

[Liam_Harper]

I disagree with your points on TBN. It works now so it will work in EW. In ShB you use TBN if it will break. If it's not breaking, you aren't taking enough damage, so you can use % mitigation instead like Shadow Wall.

Giving DRK a regen (beyond Souleater) would not be balanced because TBN is very powerful and makes some content soloable the way self-heals allow on other tanks.

TBN is extremely overrated. It has been the justifying reason for DRK being inferior for too long. Someone always came along with "but we have the best mitigation ability in the game!". It's certainly a strong skill, but it's not enough to carry a class.

All the other tanks are getting their TBN equivalent massively buffed. Holy Sheltron, Bloodwhetting and Heart of Corundum are all incredibly good. They don't consume or rely on your main dps resource at all and there is no penalty if they don't break, leaving TBN as the odd one out apart from a slightly shorter recast time, which is really unnecessary because no content requires you blow TBN every 15 sec (and if you did, you wouldn't pop half of them).

On top of their arguably more useful TBN's, the other tanks will have better self heals in Endwalker too. DRK has been left behind.

[Jeeqbit]

All the other tanks are getting their TBN equivalent massively buffed. Holy Sheltron, Bloodwhetting and Heart of Corundum are all incredibly good. They don't consume or rely on your main dps resource at all and there is no penalty if they don't break, leaving TBN as the odd one out apart from a slightly shorter recast time, which is really unnecessary because no content requires you blow TBN every 15 sec (and if you did, you wouldn't pop half of them).

On top of their arguably more useful TBN's, the other tanks will have better self heals in Endwalker too. DRK has been left behind.

PLD needed the extra self-heals because it has been the one tank that, after mitigation and self-heals, had the lowest health even using Sheltron regularly, unless they used Clemency which is not done by most tanks because it's a GCD.

GNB needed these extra heals to be on the same level as the other tanks, because although a bit better than PLD in a party, it has been one of the hardest tanks to solo on. A PLD can self-heal as much as it likes, a WAR can use its abundance of self-heals including its combo and 3 healing abilities, a DRK can TBN endlessly, but for GNB to do the same it would have to spam Keen Edge and Brutal Shell, denting the damage a lot. Aurora doesn't compare to a GCD heal, 3 healing abilities or a 25% health shield on a 15 sec cooldown.

Bloodwhetting on WAR is a bit of a nerf. While in ShB you can combine Nascent Flash with Fell Cleaves or Inner Chaos for 590 or 920 potency, in EW it will be a fixed 400 potency heal which is still lower than the new potency of those actions. It will probably even out though because sometimes those actions are not available. Shake It Off will heal and Bloodwhetting reduces damage, so may make up for it a bit too.

[Colt47]

PLD needed the extra self-heals because it has been the one tank that, after mitigation and self-heals, had the lowest health even using Sheltron regularly, unless they used Clemency which is not done by most tanks because it's a GCD.

GNB needed these extra heals to be on the same level as the other tanks, because although a bit better than PLD in a party, it has been one of the hardest tanks to solo on. A PLD can self-heal as much as it likes, a WAR can use its abundance of self-heals including its combo and 3 healing abilities, a DRK can TBN endlessly, but for GNB to do the same it would have to spam Keen Edge and Brutal Shell, denting the damage a lot. Aurora doesn't compare to a GCD heal, 3 healing abilities or a 25% health shield on a 15 sec cooldown.

Bloodwhetting on WAR is a bit of a nerf. While in ShB you can combine Nascent Flash with Fell Cleaves or Inner Chaos for 590 or 920 potency, in EW it will be a fixed 400 potency heal which is still lower than the new potency of those actions. It will probably even out though because sometimes those actions are not available. Shake It Off will heal and Bloodwhetting reduces damage, so may make up for it a bit too.

As a warrior main I'm a little bothered by the nerf to self heals. We'll have to see how it plays out in the game but I'm ready to jump ship to paladin or Gunbreaker if it looks like Warrior is falling behind. I'm actually worried about warrior AND dark knight.

[Crimsonrock]

PLD needed the extra self-heals because it has been the one tank that, after mitigation and self-heals, had the lowest health even using Sheltron regularly, unless they used Clemency which is not done by most tanks because it's a GCD.

GNB needed these extra heals to be on the same level as the other tanks, because although a bit better than PLD in a party, it has been one of the hardest tanks to solo on. A PLD can self-heal as much as it likes, a WAR can use its abundance of self-heals including its combo and 3 healing abilities, a DRK can TBN endlessly, but for GNB to do the same it would have to spam Keen Edge and Brutal Shell, denting the damage a lot. Aurora doesn't compare to a GCD heal, 3 healing abilities or a 25% health shield on a 15 sec cooldown.

Bloodwhetting on WAR is a bit of a nerf. While in ShB you can combine Nascent Flash with Fell Cleaves or Inner Chaos for 590 or 920 potency, in EW it will be a fixed 400 potency heal which is still lower than the new potency of those actions. It will probably even out though because sometimes those actions are not available. Shake It Off will heal and Bloodwhetting reduces damage, so may make up for it a bit too.

Most of the tank receive buffs especially self regen in EW. PLD have Intervention, Holy sheltron (both have 250 cure potency for 12 sec, not sure is 250 every 3 with 12 sec or 250 over 12 sec), while Intervention had 10% damage mitigation every 10 sec with is already better than oblation, sheltron had upgrade to 8 sec blockinhg attack plus 4 sec 15% mitigation plus self healing, which could possible on par with TBN with no penalty. PLD also had burst window with dots that come right after a total of 1600 cure potency every minute. (beside self healing, DK might still able to catch up by popping the BW equilibrium, living shadow and shadowbringer at the same time but living shadow is 2 min cooldown which hard to conduct).

I won't say too much about PLD since is the poster of EW so I ok with PLD op changing. And is not ridiculously OP actually.

[Crimsonrock]

PLD needed the extra self-heals because it has been the one tank that, after mitigation and self-heals, had the lowest health even using Sheltron regularly, unless they used Clemency which is not done by most tanks because it's a GCD.

GNB needed these extra heals to be on the same level as the other tanks, because although a bit better than PLD in a party, it has been one of the hardest tanks to solo on. A PLD can self-heal as much as it likes, a WAR can use its abundance of self-heals including its combo and 3 healing abilities, a DRK can TBN endlessly, but for GNB to do the same it would have to spam Keen Edge and Brutal Shell, denting the damage a lot. Aurora doesn't compare to a GCD heal, 3 healing abilities or a 25% health shield on a 15 sec cooldown.

Bloodwhetting on WAR is a bit of a nerf. While in ShB you can combine Nascent Flash with Fell Cleaves or Inner Chaos for 590 or 920 potency, in EW it will be a fixed 400 potency heal which is still lower than the new potency of those actions. It will probably even out though because sometimes those actions are not available. Shake It Off will heal and Bloodwhetting reduces damage, so may make up for it a bit too.

For GNB, Yes I agree with extra self healing, and 2 charge of Aurora and a bit self healing from upgraded version of heart of stone, Heart of Corundum (HOC) is what they received.
DK had souleater (300 cure potency), Abyssal Drain (200 cure potency, a lot for pulling packs), while Aurora is a 1200 potency every min (2400 for 36 sec in 2 charge) and Brutal Shell (200 cure potency plus shield) with a bit of self healing form HOC, That's already more than DK while fighting boss beside pulling packs. And it you count mitigation, GNB is not very fall behind a lot from DK in terms of mitigation, not to mention GNB position is a dps tank. Yes DK had TBN, but we don't pop it every 15 second as what I mentioned before. With these, GNB is almost reaching somewhere close to DK in term of damage mitigation (which DK suppose to be more superior compare to other tank), plus more self healing than DK in some situation, and already a higher dps tank than other tanks. This already put DK in a rather disadvantage position. People say GNB is the less favorite tank for healer to group in duty route (just behind DK). But this will likely to change once EW release.

As for warrior, yea I agree with the self healing part, since WAR rely heavily on self healing apart for mitigation, but since they change other ability also so I not quite sure how will it work in EW also.

[Crimsonrock]

Because, TBN is the only mitigation DK have beside rampart and shadow wall, reprisal and a not very helpful new ability oblation, which other tank also had (WAR is Thrill of Battle instead 30% mitigation) plus a new mitigation ability with same effect but with 3 or 4 powerful additional effect. Outside TBN, I can only rely on those. I usually only use TBN at tank bluster cause I can't fully read the boss mechanics changing timing, is awkward if you use TBN to absorb normal attack (and shield didn't break in time) and unable to pop for the tank bluster which come just after your TBN faded away (where TBN is still in cooldown) plus dps lose also.

You fine with it, maybe cause you can accurately read the boss mechanics changing timing, but not me. So I only use if for tank bluster, and I'm vulnerable if other mitigation still in cooldown cause DK had the less self healing compare to other tank (GNB gain 2 charge of self regen in EW). You still fine tanking using DK and compete with other tanks in SHB, but will highly no be a thing once EW release with the changes of other tanks. Souleater doesn't heal a lot, is roughly 10% of health every 7 to 7.5 second (doesn't include the time you pop bloodspiller and Quietus instead of souleater combo). And abssyal drain only heal a lot if you pulling a huge pack plus 1 min cd, which less effective while fighting dungeon/trial/raid boss.

And we don't very know how the boss mechanics going to be in EW (especially when other tank receive decent buff for EW). The boss would quite likely be harder than SHB. I can only solo tank some of the bosses in Stormblood without a healer (yes I weak). Don't even think about solo tanking SHB dungeon bosses. And take a look of how of the self healing other tank going to received in EW.

The OGCD AOE is just a suggestion for the Dark Arts design. Is fine if you don't like it. And I highly hope they change the cooldown to 30 sec (with less mana regen if 600MP every 30 sec consider too op)

[Crimsonrock]

I disagree with your points on TBN. It works now so it will work in EW. In ShB you use TBN if it will break. If it's not breaking, you aren't taking enough damage, so you can use % mitigation instead like Shadow Wall.

Giving DRK a regen (beyond Souleater) would not be balanced because TBN is very powerful and makes some content soloable the way self-heals allow on other tanks.

For OGCD aoe, DRK already has Flood of Shadow and many other aoe abilities, so it doesn't need the OGCD aoe the other tanks got.

Abyssal Drain is supposed to take health from each enemy, so it can heal you to full if there are lots of enemies.

Because, TBN is the only mitigation DK have beside rampart and shadow wall, reprisal and a not very helpful new ability oblation, which other tank also had (WAR is Thrill of Battle instead 30% mitigation) plus a new mitigation ability with same effect but with 3 or 4 powerful additional effect. Outside TBN, I can only rely on those. I usually only use TBN at tank bluster cause I can't fully read the boss mechanics changing timing, is awkward if you use TBN to absorb normal attack (and shield didn't break in time) and unable to pop for the tank bluster which come just after your TBN faded away (where TBN is still in cooldown) plus dps lose also.

You fine with it, maybe cause you can accurately read the boss mechanics changing timing, but not me. So I only use if for tank bluster, and I'm vulnerable if other mitigation still in cooldown cause DK had the less self healing compare to other tank (GNB gain 2 charge of self regen in EW). You still fine tanking using DK and compete with other tanks in SHB, but will highly no be a thing once EW release with the changes of other tanks. Souleater doesn't heal a lot, is roughly 10% of health every 7 to 7.5 second (doesn't include the time you pop bloodspiller and Quietus instead of souleater combo). And abssyal drain only heal a lot if you pulling a huge pack plus 1 min cd, which less effective while fighting dungeon/trial/raid boss.

And we don't very know how the boss mechanics going to be in EW (especially when other tank receive decent buff for EW). The boss would quite likely be harder than SHB. I can only solo tank some of the bosses in Stormblood without a healer (yes I weak). Don't even think about solo tanking SHB dungeon bosses. And take a look of how of the self healing other tank going to received in EW.

The OGCD AOE is just a suggestion for the Dark Arts design. Is fine if you don't like it. And I highly hope they change the cooldown to 30 sec (with less mana regen if 600MP every 30 sec consider too op)

[Crimsonrock]

Most of the tank receive buffs especially self regen in EW. PLD have Intervention, Holy sheltron (both have 250 cure potency for 12 sec, not sure is 250 every 3 with 12 sec or 250 over 12 sec), while Intervention had 10% damage mitigation every 10 sec with is already better than oblation, sheltron had upgrade to 8 sec blockinhg attack plus 4 sec 15% mitigation plus self healing, which could possible on par with TBN with no penalty. PLD also had burst window with dots that come right after a total of 1600 cure potency every minute. (beside self healing, DK might still able to catch up by popping the BW equilibrium, living shadow and shadowbringer at the same time but living shadow is 2 min cooldown which hard to conduct). I won't say too much about PLD since is the poster of EW so I ok with PLD op changing.

For GNB, Yes I agree with extra self healing, and 2 charge of Aurora and a bit self healing from upgraded version of heart of stone, Heart of Corundum (HOC) is what they received.
DK had souleater (300 cure potency), Abyssal Drain (200 cure potency, a lot for pulling packs), while Aurora is a 1200 potency every min (2400 for 36 sec in 2 charge) and Brutal Shell (200 cure potency plus shield) with a bit of self healing form HOC, That's already more than DK while fighting boss beside pulling packs. And it you count mitigation, GNB is not very fall behind a lot from DK in terms of mitigation, not to mention GNB position is a dps tank. Yes DK had TBN, but we don't pop it every 15 second as what I mentioned before. With these, GNB is almost reaching somewhere close to DK in term of damage mitigation (which DK suppose to be more superior compare to other tank), plus more self healing than DK in some situation, and already a higher dps tank than other tanks. This already put DK in a rather disadvantage position. People say GNB is the less favorite tank for healer to group in duty route (just behind DK). But this will likely to change once EW release.

As for warrior, yea I agree with the self healing part, since WAR rely heavily on self healing apart for mitigation, but since they change other ability also so I not quite sure how will it work in EW also.