Did we reverse Emet's tempering at the end?

[Alleluia]

What it says on the tin. I don't recall if anything's been said one way or the other in canon about this*, but now that we've learned how to undo tempering in others by basically resetting their elemental aether balance, are we in general agreement that that's what happened with Hades at the end of our fight? He was the "darkness to your light", as Y'shtola puts it; which implies the reverse is true as well. And, in the end, he could say "remember us" with a smile on his face and actually let go of his mission, which I don't think he could have done if tempered.


EDIT: Further thought - When Elidibus says "Would that I had been there to offer correction" regarding Hades' change of heart in the end, by "offer correction" could he mean re-temper him? Given his role as Zodiark's heart, theoretically he could have done that. Though maybe not, cus if he could temper people at will, you'd think he'd do so. SO I dunno. Just speculating.


EDIT 2: I also don't think Hades could have helped us fight Elidibus if he was still tempered. Though to be fair, the exact nature of what came to help us is still a question, so I'm not sure if it counts as evidence at the moment.




*(I do feel like this is something that may have been discussed in-game and I'm just not remembering it, so please don't hesitate to just cite at me if I'm wrong.)

[TheMightyMollusk]

Unlikely. Curing tempering requires careful focus and an abundance of aether. We were on the verge of turning into a Lightwarden while the Scions are getting smacked around behind us, then we threw an axe through his chest.

My take is that his final "Remember us" line is just a tired old man accepting his demise and asking that the glories of his people not be lost to time. Considering what happens to Elidibus, it's certainly a worthwhile thing to ask. Especially if Emet knew about Elidibus's true nature beforehand.

As for Elidibus's line about "correction", he probably just means helping Emet to course-correct and not get killed. It was kind of a running thing that the three Unsundered didn't always see eye to eye and each thought their own path was the best.

[Cleretic]

What we did pretty clearly didn't even remotely resemble the actual cure for tempering that was later discovered, too, so I'm gonna say no, we definitely didn't.

[Cilia]

His bath in the Lifestream probably did it, but there's nothing suggesting Emet was cured of his tempering prior.

In regards to Elidibus "offering correction," I'm pretty sure he just meant "give a counseling session" to get him back on the "proper path." By letting go of his mission he effectively betrayed the Ascians; Elidibus was for most intents and purposes the Ascians' handler, though he generally left Emet alone because they were more peers than the lesser Ascians and he was effective on his own.

In regards to him helping us during the final showdown with Elidibus, he had a bath in the Lifestream to cure his tempering; further he was (probably) helping Elidibus (via mercy kill) as much as if not more than us. While the Ascians were tempered, they did seem to largely retain their agency.

[WhiteArchmage]

Isn't there kind of precedent? When Nael/Eula recovers her mind right before her final death? And Louisoix does the same, only having enough energy to manifest and show his grandchildren (and us) the Truth of the Calamity (and sorta bathing us in Phoenix aether even though the twins decide not to use it to prevent Phoenix from being resummoned, SMN mains everywhere look at that scene nervously). But there seems like in a person's (especially one who is basically aether) dying moments they are released from Tempering.

[Rosenstrauch]

I'd like to think we did, and it's why he jumped at the opportunity to help us later on. But AFAIK, prior to 5.4 the only ways to remove an individual's tempering was to either be the primal who tempered them in the first place and willfully release them (see: Louisoix and Darnus) or to kill them, allowing their soul to reenter the aetherial sea where their aether would be rebalanced and their memories shorn from them. So if we did untemper him, it was most likely because of the latter.

[Alleluia]

Unlikely. Curing tempering requires careful focus and an abundance of aether. We were on the verge of turning into a Lightwarden while the Scions are getting smacked around behind us, then we threw an axe through his chest.

What we did pretty clearly didn't even remotely resemble the actual cure for tempering that was later discovered, too, so I'm gonna say no, we definitely didn't.

I think injecting him with a huge amount of light aether, thus countering his imbalance towards darkness, is exactly the same mechanic our cure for tempering uses.

The concentration and carefulness that we display with the normal cure process later on is cus we're doing it on purpose now, and we actually want the people we're curing to live afterwards. But neither of those things has to be true for the actual aetheric rebalancing that breaks tempering to occur. That's just something akin to a chemical reaction. If you have the necessary components of it present, it'll happen.

His bath in the Lifestream probably did it, but there's nothing suggesting Emet was cured of his tempering prior.

Him accepting his loss and smiling at us when we agree to remember them seems like it indicates he's no longer being compelled to aide Zodiark's return. He's accepted the plan has fallen through and its not happening. I think that's suggestive that he's no longer tempered.

[Alleluia]

I'd like to think we did, and it's why he jumped at the opportunity to help us later on. But AFAIK, prior to 5.4 the only ways to remove an individual's tempering was to either be the primal who tempered them in the first place and willfully release them (see: Louisoix and Darnus) or to kill them, allowing their soul to reenter the aetherial sea where their aether would be rebalanced and their memories shorn from them. So if we did untemper him, it was most likely because of the latter.

The latter wouldn't work with Zodiark, though, I don't think. Cus when the Ascians raise a soul shard of one of the Convocation to "full ascian" status, they're still tempered to Zodiark's will from back when their souls summoned him as unsundered ancients.

At least, I think so. I guess, in theory, they could be passing the tempering on to them via the soul stones? Or maybe re-tempering them somehow after they elevate them? Though I dunno how, since Zodiark is dormant. If Elidibus can temper for Zodiark, then that could explain it, but if he could do that you'd think he'd just go around tempering everyone and their mother and gain a million fellow zodiark followers to carry out their plans.

Its a simpler explanation that the tempering just carries through from their days as ancients, though, so I'm leaning towards that at the moment.

Isn't there kind of precedent? When Nael/Eula recovers her mind right before her final death? And Louisoix does the same, only having enough energy to manifest and show his grandchildren (and us) the Truth of the Calamity (and sorta bathing us in Phoenix aether even though the twins decide not to use it to prevent Phoenix from being resummoned, SMN mains everywhere look at that scene nervously). But there seems like in a person's (especially one who is basically aether) dying moments they are released from Tempering.

True, though they're both weird cases of being already dead by the time we defeat them. We didn't hit them with any specific blast of aether, but it could be that having one foot basically already in the lifestream was what allowed them to rebalance and shake off their tempering, and our defeat of them in battle was just what allowed it the opportunity to happen? I can't think of an example of someone who is definitively alive and has clearly come back to themselves when we defeated them. Unless you count people who *were* the primals, like Yotsuyu and Ysale, but then you can argue they were never tempered in the first place to anything other than their own wills, so there was essentially nothing to fix.

[Cleretic]

I think injecting him with a huge amount of light aether, thus countering his imbalance towards darkness, is exactly the same mechanic our cure for tempering uses.

The concentration and carefulness that we display with the normal cure process later on is cus we're doing it on purpose now, and we actually want the people we're curing to live afterwards. But neither of those things has to be true for the actual aetheric rebalancing that breaks tempering to occur. That's just something akin to a chemical reaction. If you have the necessary components of it present, it'll happen.

Uhm... no, not with tempering. Theoretically a pull like that might've un-Voidsented the mind of something like Diabolos, since with sin eaters and voidsent it's just a gross imbalance between light and dark.

With tempering it's both a gross imbalance and a dilution of the self, and that's not something you could just brute-force with, say, cramming an apocalypse's worth of light in someone's chest. Fixing the sense of self without the aetheric imbalance is going to cause an even more dangerous fanatic, fixing the aetheric imbalance without the sense of self is going to leave someone unsure of their own identity (and is probably SUPER susceptible to additional tempering).

We've not seen a great amount from Emet post-axe-through-the-chest, but I would not describe his lines afterwards, in-game or in that one Tales from the Shadows, as especially fanatical or lacking in self-identity. So not only do I think we didn't cure him of tempering (because that requires a two-dimensional approach, that we were... definitely not doing at the time), we didn't even fail to cure him. We just killed the guy.

Granted, it's a little muddied by the fact Zodiark is a primal of dark aether, and that dilution was through umbral/light aether. But since we do still know that somehow there is a difference between pure dark tempering and voidsent (if not what exactly that difference is), we can still assume it's a two-dimensional thing.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Uhm... no, not with tempering. Theoretically a pull like that might've un-Voidsented the mind of something like Diabolos, since with sin eaters and voidsent it's just a gross imbalance between light and dark.

It's stated that the cure for tempering won't work on someone whose aether is so unbalanced that it's caused physical mutations. It only worked on Halric and the rest of the patients at the Inn at Journey's End because they hadn't fully turned and the destruction of the Lightwardens meant they weren't being pushed further. Full voidesent and sin eaters are out of luck.