MNK Fists Removal

[Aelin_Ashryver]

They are not button bloat if you don't need to use them on the fly. Not everything is just combat and rigid rotations. There's content aside from high end raiding in the game. Many ways that skills are used that go beyond how you play the game that others enjoy. Button bloat is when you have a 30 button rotation where every button uses a different skill or effect. Not skills that are meant to give flavor to the game.

They need to be on your bar to be used regardless though. That's three spots taken on your bar for no real reason at this point.

[Gemina]

The fist stances is an antiquated concept in a game designed around DPS output. They don't work because there are very few situations where the benefit of increased DEF outweighs the loss to damage. The only situation I can think of where this applies is where you survive damage that would have otherwise killed you if had not increased your DEF, at that point though, it just becomes a mitigation tool that is meant to absorb one big blast instead of sustained damage; defeating the purpose of a stance.

When I made some brain stews with MNK, I've often thought about the forms also automatically putting you in a certain stance. That way the benefit is mandatory and not something you have to choose. As an example Opo form also puts you in FoE, and while it is active you do have that DEF increase. That was back when Formshift made you switch forms though. Now as passive buffs, I think most players would be like, "Ok, but why?"

[AndieEldritch]

The changes in potency calculations through the squish & Blitz finishers should account for the removal of FoF.

The increased mobility of Thunderclap in instances makes Fists of Wind redundant outside of running around cities.

Riddle of Earth alone is more than enough to reduce incoming damage paired with Manta to make it easier for the healer to top up everyone.

-There was precious little incentive to ever turn off FoF and micro-managing fist stances was mostly just a waste of time. As long as you have uptime on boss, FoF and output damage.
We also now never have the "Oh, I forgot to turn on FoF" moments when sync'd.

An "extra damage button" is a pointless thing to have, I'd rather have that just built in; and now we have the mobility, survivability and hopefully the raw output built into our kit from the get-go.

[Xeahanort]

Just checked. XD Didn't reallized they been removed.. Like I said before. I'm indifferent to it haha. Didn't even notice they were gone. Most of my arguments were made cause I assuming it was being requested for them to be removed. Meh I don't care all things considered. XD I wouldn't have mind it at all if the kept them. But I also really don't care that they are gone either. lol

[Aeliott]

Fists of Earth will be sorely missed for deep dungeon solo challenges, but beyond that I can't say the 3 skills were worth keeping.

[SpeckledBurd]

The fist stance removal is entirely a good thing. The last time Fists of Earth actually made a difference in survivability was in Heavensward when weakness reduced your total HP, and Fists of Wind was only useful in combat when GL4 was locked behind it. The only impact the Fists have actually had on Monk's gameplay, if we're playing how the devs want us to anyway, has been blocking Monk' gameplay from evolving by wasting traits that could be used better for literally anything else (like 4.0 Tackle Mastery or 5.0 Fists of Fire Mastery and Riddle of Wind GL4). The actual gameplay evolution in 4.2 was both highly divisive and completely accidental, plus the reprisal from it being removed ruined Monks gameplay in Shadowbringers by completely gutting Monk's recovery because people were having fun wrong.

The devs proved that they were unable to do anything with fist stances other than waste the limited design space Monk has in a new expansion. With them gone other things can be developed upon instead of us getting a new version of Tackle Mastery where we still only want to stay in Fists of Fire.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

I'm curious to hear other's thoughts on fists and their removal.

I always thought that they made no sense, to be honest.
Monk is a Monk, not a Elemental Brawler, so I always felt like the Fist of stances, and to extension also the Riddle of actions, do not belong on Monk, as it is weird for Monk to be able to use actions that are more or less magic, in my opinion. It would make more sense to either tie all of these actions into Chakra, or replace these actions with new actions that would tie into Chakra, is how I felt about it.

That said, I do also have a Monk action concept, where-in I have made three WeaponSkill actions that replace the Fist of stances, while still to retain there original effects, albeit only in spirit, as this is not a copy-and-paste, these WeaponSkill actions have their own effects; that are also Chakra spenders, to make the magical aspects of the physical punches fit into the Monks' identity better, or at least from my perspective.

[Kaehl]

I'm kind of in general agreement that the Fists should go, but I really would prefer to keep Fists of Wind as some kind of trait. While it isn't 'necessary', the extra maneuverability always felt in character for a monk and made hitting those positionals more comfortable. I've always hated having to use Fists of Fire because it ruins that agile feeling that comes from having Wind up.

So, Fists of Wind as a trait - scrap Earth and Fire, because they're both meh. (Earth as a trait would also be fine, but it doesn't really matter from a gameplay perspective)

[Andy_T93]

TBH I feel like they should just make peloton a all DPS skill rather than just ranged, it has zero battle implications

[Shurrikhan]

I'd rather make them more worthwhile than scrap them, especially with MNK being as basic as it is now (themed mostly around Leaden Fist, upkeep of a buff and DoT each, and a per-40s Iaijutsu come EW).