Can SQ-EN draw a line in the sand w/ 3rd Parties?

[yajnaji]

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...al-Fantasy-XIV

Here you go.

I thought (stupid of me, I know) you were being serious.

Memes and shitposts made by bored people don't account for official information. Try again.

[Saraide]

I thought (stupid of me, I know) you were being serious.

Memes and shitposts made by bored people don't account for official information. Try again.

That's fine, I didnt think (smart of me, I know) you were being serious.

[Eien713]

And you dont see the similarities between 'communication via discord vs via ingame chat' and 'shotcalling done by cactbot vs done by raid leader'?

I don't get your point.

The game has built in text chat thus no violation of the of the EULA. Voice coms is straight up advantage. Type as fast as you want, most are not as fast as speaking it is harder to notice than a shot caller in your ear. Correct voice coms isn't harmful, and neither are other 3rd party programs unless they are forced by players, which is what triggers a violation.

I see this conversation as going nowhere since we're both speaking from different points of view. The other programs are "harmful" because they give an advantage to some people over others (PS players) and automate a task that was meant to be done by humans. Programs that help people communicate or make the game look better aren't the same as these. Next thing you know, people would be defending the use of bots.

[ICountFrom0]

My big question is, why isn't the line ZERO, just like the subscriber contract says it is?

Do we really want to be in a world where the dev's are designing based on the assumption that tools will be used, and thus those that don't use them get a short stick experiance?

[Nothv13]

I don't get your point.




I see this conversation as going nowhere since we're both speaking from different points of view. The other programs are "harmful" because they give an advantage to some people over others (PS players) and automate a task that was meant to be done by humans. Programs that help people communicate or make the game look better aren't the same as these. Next thing you know, people would be defending the use of bots.

Bots are clear cut and their enforcement on it hasn't been reliant on specific actions outside of using the bots. They are only harmful when players force them. The fact that these have existed for years and have been used for years and that nothing harmful has happened to the game and it has only gotten better. BTW, should anyone using an MMO mouse of MMO keypad and software be banned (this includes Yoshi P who uses a g13)? They offer a straight up advantage unavailable to console players. How about all the exploits used in house decoration. Abuse of bugs and exploits is forbidden in the EULA.

My big question is, why isn't the line ZERO, just like the subscriber contract says it is?

Do we really want to be in a world where the dev's are designing based on the assumption that tools will be used, and thus those that don't use them get a short stick experiance?

Because they don't make the game based on these tools, which have been around for years. The line exists and has existed. the line is when you start harassing and forcing them on other players based on addons.

[Saraide]

My big question is, why isn't the line ZERO, just like the subscriber contract says it is?

Do we really want to be in a world where the dev's are designing based on the assumption that tools will be used, and thus those that don't use them get a short stick experiance?

If the line is 0 you will no longer be able to use discord, you will no longer be able to use excel for BiS calculations (which you probably arent doing but other people are for you), you will no longer be able to have an mmo mouse with extra buttons, you will no longer have videos about the game (looking through vods makes it far easier to see what went wrong in a wipe). Those are all third party tools. That line is a stupid line to draw as it doesnt address what's important and that is that you're not allowed to harass people. If you use a parser to harass someone over their dps you get punished, if you use a parser to see where you can improve your own damage output then you are not punished because you are not causing any trouble.

How much admiration the community gives to people with savage or ulti clears is on the community.

I don't get your point.




I see this conversation as going nowhere since we're both speaking from different points of view. The other programs are "harmful" because they give an advantage to some people over others (PS players) and automate a task that was meant to be done by humans. Programs that help people communicate or make the game look better aren't the same as these. Next thing you know, people would be defending the use of bots.

You bringing up how people could just call out stuff via ingame chat instead of talking over discord is the exact same logic as some people in this thread saying how you can just have your raidleader call mechanics instead of cactbot. In both cases the third party tool (discord/cactbot) are stronger than the strictly ingame options.

[Eien713]

BTW, should anyone using an MMO mouse of MMO keypad and software be banned (this includes Yoshi P who uses a g13)? They offer a straight up advantage unavailable to console players. How about all the exploits used in house decoration. Abuse of bugs and exploits is forbidden in the EULA.

As long as it's a person playing using the mouse and keypad, I personally don't care. I know that as a console player, I probably won't be able to perform as well as a good mouse-and-keyboard player, but it doesn't matter to me. I'm not playing the game to be 100% percentile. I enjoy the controller support greatly and think it's genius. And correct me if I'm wrong but can't console players connect a mouse and a keyboard to the Play Station and play like PC players? I've never tried this, so I don't know.

As for the housing exploits, they're, again, not harming anyone and it's a person taking the time and having the patience to play around with them and everyone can use them (as far as I know, unless there's another program they use that allows for stuff that the glitching doesn't).

Lemme repeat one more time: People here are discussing stuff that gives an advantage to some people over others by automating stuff for them. They're not picking up pitchforks and going for the entirety of the EULA.

You bringing up how people could just call out stuff via ingame chat instead of talking over discord is the exact same logic as some people in this thread saying how you can just have your raidleader call mechanics instead of cactbot. In both cases the third party tool (discord/cactbot) are stronger than the strictly ingame options.

Except they're not. In Cactbot's case, it's a program and not a person doing the callouts. Discord or any means of communication doesn't do stuff for you. That was the whole point discussed in the thread. We're not discussing in-game stuff vs. all 3rd-party stuff. The conversation somehow got derailed and went there, but that wasn't the initial point discussed. At least I didn't see it that way.

[LittleImp]

The problem with this comparison is that discord doesn't invasively access the games memory, or intercept network packets intended solely for the game client ​in order to perform it's basic function.

Cactbot extracts and decodes typically (and intentionally) obfuscated game data in order to effectively automate an intended element of fight execution. Sometimes plugins like trigonometry are even employed for literal, input related automation.

Discord lets you talk to your team mates on a voice chat. The PS4 has voice-chat as well, that is more or less officially sanctioned by virtue of it not being disabled when you launch FFXIV.

These two things aren't comparable.

[Nothv13]

As long as it's a person playing using the mouse and keypad, I personally don't care. I know that as a console player, I probably won't be able to perform as well as a good mouse-and-keyboard player, but it doesn't matter to me. I'm not playing the game to be 100% percentile. I enjoy the controller support greatly and think it's genius. And correct me if I'm wrong but can't console players connect a mouse and a keyboard to the Play Station and play like PC players? I've never tried this, so I don't know.

As for the housing exploits, they're, again, not harming anyone and it's a person taking the time and having the patience to play around with them and everyone can use them (as far as I know and unless there's another program they use that allows for stuff that the glitching doesn't).

Lemme repeat one more time: People here are discussing stuff that gives an advantage to some people over others by automating stuff for them. They're not picking up pitchforks and going for the entirety of the EULA.

Yes they can connect a mouse and keyboard but functionality varies. They also can't use the software of these keypads and mice which leaves many of their advantages unusable. One advantage would be being able to use macros without delays, reduce combos down to one button, macro oGCDs for perfect timing. Your logic here literally applies to everything but bots. Even cactbot still requires the person to actually play and pay attention.

[Eien713]

Yes they can connect a mouse and keyboard but functionality varies. They also can't use the software of these keypads and mice which leaves many of their advantages unusable. One advantage would be being able to use macros without delays, reduce combos down to one button, macro oGCDs for perfect timing.

In that case, I'd say the advantages do sound unfair but I'm not willing to delve into that debate. I honestly don't care enough about parses to wanna die on this hill.

Your logic here literally applies to everything but bots. Even cactbot still requires the person to actually play and pay attention.

It still gives you an advantage since a person can get distracted, can panic and forget stuff or mess up, etc. but a program doesn't. No one said Cactbot plays the game for you or makes it so mechanics don't matter or you don't have to pay attention, just that it gives an undeniable advantage by removing the possible human-error factor when it comes to making call-outs or noticing mechanics for yourself (sometimes apparently going as far as telling you what to do).