Endwalker GNB Discussion

[Ixon]

The 3rd cartridge being spent on Burst Strike is just to use a cartridge if you have it, if that.
Granted this is just me feely-crafting here, but also a bit of bias. I enjoy the hectic pace and APM GNB offers. If anything I'd say that, after a bloodfest, if in the middle of No Mercy a weave must take place, then treating 2x Down as we do Burst Strike now alleviates that issue altogether.

High APM is not the crux of the issue, it's a side effect. The main issue is adding more forced oGCDs that restrict and limit the functionality of being a tank during certain unavoidable circumstances.
Bloodfest is 90sec, Double Down is 60sec. Bloodfest is not supposed to "guarantee" a Double Down as you should be saving three cartridges for your burst that would at minimum go to a Gnashing and a Double Down. If anything, Bloodfest is going to be used to get more Burst Strikes out.
Not to mention if the last GCD in your No Mercy window is a Burst Strike, unless you meld a significant amount of skill speed, your No Mercy will fall off before the following Hypervelocity. That has nothing to do with the player, that's just how the numbers work.
You can have a complex job without it feeling disfunctional. You can have a busy job without it being a hindrance.

[WhyAmIHere]

High APM is not the crux of the issue, it's a side effect. The main issue is adding more forced oGCDs that restrict and limit the functionality of being a tank during certain unavoidable circumstances.
Bloodfest is 90sec, Double Down is 60sec. Bloodfest is not supposed to "guarantee" a Double Down as you should be saving three cartridges for your burst that would at minimum go to a Gnashing and a Double Down. If anything, Bloodfest is going to be used to get more Burst Strikes out.
Not to mention if the last GCD in your No Mercy window is a Burst Strike, unless you meld a significant amount of skill speed, your No Mercy will fall off before the following Hypervelocity. That has nothing to do with the player, that's just how the numbers work.
You can have a complex job without it feeling disfunctional. You can have a busy job without it being a hindrance.

And I'd agree. Even extending No Mercy to 21s should suffice to make sure you get that Burst Strike->Continuation in whilst NM is active. Adding a second or two of duration to a thing's not outside of SE's wheelhouse, and saying "Hey SE, can you please add 1 second of duration to No Mercy? That way Hypervelocity will land within No Mercy's active duration. Please and thank you" is a thing I can get behind.

But I'd still counter the point of there being too many oGCDs. IDK, I was never too bothered by SB DRK and it's "DA spam" personally, and I didn't feel like it impacted my ability to tank. Did I have to learn how better to time out my cooldowns if I needed to use them in raids and I was going in to a burst moment, or just forego the damage and focus on doing the mechanics the fight required me to do? Sure. I can think of several instances where being a GNB is painful. E2S as I mentioned before it's painful for your 2nd No Mercy. E5S during the "add" phase(s). TEA. But those things can be worked around.

To me, it's not limiting to have one more skill be affected by Continuation. It's not gonna be a fun learning process to be sure, but it's not the end of the world. Being a tank as GNB is already troubling when it comes to using mitigations during heavy weave moments, but I see them more as challenges to solve. "If this mechanic'll happen and I'm about to go into NM, and it'll be unpleasant for me to try and maneuver around or mitigate damage, how can I plot out my skills such that I won't miss out on any GCDs?" That to me says, at it's core, GNB is not a simple to play tank, nor should it be in my opinion! It's technical and requires more understanding of fight timings to maximize it's potential in any given encounter. It's not so demanding if you're just an off tank smacking the boss, but as main tank? Hoo boy, trying to hit the tail end of your cooldowns and prepop them so you don't miss them whilst in NM is pretty fun to figure out.

I'll question how you think a skill that, at [level of upgraded trait to bloodfest]*, will generate 3 cartridges is somehow not going to guarantee you access to your 2-soil spender, outside of recast timing. Especially if 2x Down and No Mercy share a recast timer. But potencies aren't set in stone yet so til then and the people smarter than me in math can plot out "is it worth to always spend a soil on burst strike, or save it for gnashing / 2x down" I still don't see an issue with Hypervelocity, besides the 20s duration of No Mercy.

[Mezzoforte]

I don't know about everyone else here with Gunbreaker and its soon to be difficulty with it over all GCD/oGCD conflict but I like that. If everything is built to be streamlined and work together flawlessly then its intensely boring and you just run it on autopilot. Having to make decisions between when you do or dont poop all those oGCDs out or having to hold one for a moment to give yourself a bit of space to drop some mitigation, heart, etc. is nice once in a while. Also, I am ok with having to re prioritize what goes into No Mercy since it at least changes it up even if it turns into another cycle of consistent repetition. Extending No Mercy will just wind everything back to effectively being Shadowbringers. I am sure they can find more elegant solutions as time goes on.

[Absurdity]

But I'd still counter the point of there being too many oGCDs. IDK, I was never too bothered by SB DRK and it's "DA spam" personally, and I didn't feel like it impacted my ability to tank. Did I have to learn how better to time out my cooldowns if I needed to use them in raids and I was going in to a burst moment, or just forego the damage and focus on doing the mechanics the fight required me to do? Sure. I can think of several instances where being a GNB is painful. E2S as I mentioned before it's painful for your 2nd No Mercy. E5S during the "add" phase(s). TEA. But those things can be worked around.

Except weaving DA was never a problem because you always had the option to delay it, using DA for either Syphon Strike, Soul Eater or Bloodspiller was dps neutral (until the point where the ability you used DA on didn't crit but the other ones did, but you had 0 influence on that). So you could always delay DA by 1-2 GCDs or worst case use it during your next Soul Eater combo, you had a lot of flexibility in which GCD you would use it on. This could potentially cost you one use of DA under raid buffs but it was 1. very rare and 2. only a loss of what, maybe 40 potency? Whereas losing Continuation is a loss of 260-300 potency.

Continuation doesn't allow for that flexibility, you either weave it after the Gnashing Fang or you lose it and unlike DA you now have to wait 30 seconds before you can use it again, not just until your next 1-2-3 combo. The only ability that allowed for some limited flexibility in case you needed to weave defensives was Burst Strike, because it didn't break your Gnashing combo and allowed for 2 weave slots. Adding Continuation to it removes that flexibility because now you have 1 of Burst Strikes' weave slots taken up by Continuation, leaving you with the exact same problem that Gnashing Fang has.

The problem isn't that GnB has too many oGCDs, it's that it has too many forced oGCDs that can only be used after a specific GCD and in a specific order. All this does it add more frustration to the job if the boss mechanics don't align well with your rotation, they could've literally made Hypervelocity a basic oGCD instead of a Continuation ability and it wouldn't be an issue because it leaves Burst Strike untouched.

I don't know about everyone else here with Gunbreaker and its soon to be difficulty with it over all GCD/oGCD conflict but I like that. If everything is built to be streamlined and work together flawlessly then its intensely boring and you just run it on autopilot. Having to make decisions between when you do or dont poop all those oGCDs out or having to hold one for a moment to give yourself a bit of space to drop some mitigation, heart, etc. is nice once in a while. Also, I am ok with having to re prioritize what goes into No Mercy since it at least changes it up even if it turns into another cycle of consistent repetition. Extending No Mercy will just wind everything back to effectively being Shadowbringers. I am sure they can find more elegant solutions as time goes on.

The main issue is that you have no choice to hold them. You either use the oGCDs or you weave defensives instead and gimp your damage because they're now unavailable and you just threw away free damage. The only tool that allowed you to hold them for a moment was Burst Strike, which will suffer from the exact same issue in Endwalker.

[Ixon]

snip

100% agree. To again reiterate, the main concern is not the total number of actions pressed. If they want GNB to be the highest APM tank that's fine, though there does come a point when it's an absurd amount for a tank. We won't know if Endwalker GNB will be that way till we get there. I enjoy GNBs current playstyle, that's why I main'd it in Shadowbringers. The main concern is the oGCDs you are forced to use before your next GCD otherwise you suffer a decent chunk of damage penalty purely because there is no flexibility with it.

Currently there only 3GCDs that force an oGCD that you have to use every 30sec. That's fine, a headache at certain times, but completely workable. In fact, one of the workarounds was to use a Burst Strike mid Gnashing Fang combo to double weave or move a boss, and they completely stripped that away. Double Down/Sonic Break only give us two chances during 1min bursts, but even then we are already double weaving during those bursts as is, and those aren't even an available option for the Gnashing Combo in between No Mercy bursts like Burst Strike is.

Potential fix: Keep Hypervelocity an oGCD Continuation after Burst Strike, but put it on a 30sec or 60sec cooldown with an increased potency of 600-1200 depending on the cooldown, and whatever would make sense for using it only once in a while instead of after every Burst Strike. We still get the cool move, it's still a continuation after Burst Strike, but reduces the total number of forced oGCDs to a more manageable number.

[Absurdity]

If you really want to keep Hypervelocity as a Continuation ability then another simple solution would be to make it activate off of Double Down.
This keeps the flexibility of Burst Strike, is only a minor restriction to your weave slots since Double Down has a 60 second cooldown and makes it so that Burst Strike doesn't suddenly have more potency than Gnashing Fang.

It may need some potency adjustments since you'll be using it a lot less but those numbers aren't set in stone right now anyway.

[Ixon]

Not sure if even I would want it permanently off Burst Strike. The animation was definitely made for following up Burst Strike, and I won't deny it does aesthetically look cool. There has been a bit of talk about what could be done to change it, but in the end it's an aesthetics vs functionality thing.

[True-to-Caesar]

I feel you guys are really on the hyperbole here, when continuation is available you have a buff that lasts 10-7 seconds.
I’m not playing right now so I can’t say the exact time but it’s more than enough to pull out anything you want to use or do.

The only case where this is an issue is when you need to drag the boss to the opposite side of the platform, yes in that case you’ll lose the continuation buff but how many times that scenario happens ? Not much and if it does, as GNB, it even more important to know the fight.

[Absurdity]

Sure the buff lasts 10 seconds (more like 8 because that's the amount of time it currently takes for your combo to run out) but only if you press absolutely nothing but oGCDs in that timeframe and this is exactly the problem.
If you want to play badly by missing GCDs left and right or constantly clipping your GCD due to tripple weaving (still doesn't solve the boss positioning issue) be my guest, but other tanks have significantly more flexibility in that regard.

I feel like I need to say it again and again, the problem is not Continuation itself, the problem is that it will be on Burst Strike, the tool you currently use to delay your forced Continuation weave without breaking the combo. And that scenario happens all the time in content above expert roulette, it will happen even more when you have Continuation after every single Burst Strike.

[AziraSyuren]

I think I might actually switch to maining WAR in EW. Giving Burst Strike a continuation feels more annoying the more I think about it. It's almost giving the job the rotational complexity of a DPS with half the flexibility when you have a lot more to worry about on a tank than just doing damage- especially movement and positioning. Even Ninja- a job which is incredibly busy in its own right during burst windows- has multiple tools it can use to disengage during said window with absolutely no loss (I think?)- you just have to switch up the order you use things. GNB has no such tools, because it's forced to be within a specific range at all times or you risk losing a lot of potency.

Maybe it'll be less annoying in practice, though.