Endwalker GNB Discussion

[WhyAmIHere]

There is a difference between what's possible, and what's optimal. By adding forced oGCDs you unnecessarily restrict flexibility and remove options when coordinating throughout an encounter. Sure, you can drop a combo, or drop an oGCD, or triple weave to make things fit, but most of us would like to do better than minimal and optimize efficiency. Having them add extra speedbumps on that road is neither fun nor rewarding gameplay.

And I'd still counter with "git gud."
Having complexity on a tank and making it require preplanning and forethought, as well as an ability to adapt on the fly, for how to weave in your mitigation in the midst of doing your rotation, is optimization. It's just not "I'm tryna get top parse" optimization, but tbf that's not something I personally ever felt like chasing. If you wanna push for top numbers then more power to you. I'd rather not have yet another tank have it's gameplay be dumbed down because a few people wanna complain "wah GNB too hard, SE fix."
What all this comes off to me as is "GNB is gonna become even more technical and difficult to master and perform well with in the midst of an encounter," and frankly I'm salivating over that.

[Absurdity]

nah that just sounds like bad GNB.
I did TEA on GNB, and all i had to do was say/think to myself "of, X is happening at Y, and I'll be at Z in my rotation. where to slot mitigation?"
the only annoying bit i can recall from tanking savage was hating OT'ing e5s.

There's a difference between playing GnB right now and playing GnB when your only tool to "adjust on the fly" suffers from the same problems as the thing you're currently trying to adjust.

[ForteNightshade]

nah that just sounds like bad GNB.
I did TEA on GNB, and all i had to do was say/think to myself "of, X is happening at Y, and I'll be at Z in my rotation. where to slot mitigation?"
the only annoying bit i can recall from tanking savage was hating OT'ing e5s.

It's an optimized GNB. How well did you perform in TEA? Did you clip your GCD, delay Burst Strike/Faded Circle out of raid buffs or lose a GCD moving the boss? All of these are issues GNB already has but can be mitigated to an extent with current Burst Strike. That will no longer be the case in Endwalker since you'll have a oGCD tied to it.

And I'd still counter with "git gud."
Having complexity on a tank and making it require preplanning and forethought, as well as an ability to adapt on the fly, for how to weave in your mitigation in the midst of doing your rotation, is optimization. It's just not "I'm tryna get top parse" optimization, but tbf that's not something I personally ever felt like chasing. If you wanna push for top numbers then more power to you. I'd rather not have yet another tank have it's gameplay be dumbed down because a few people wanna complain "wah GNB too hard, SE fix."
What all this comes off to me as is "GNB is gonna become even more technical and difficult to master and perform well with in the midst of an encounter," and frankly I'm salivating over that.

Nothing about this is added complexity because the solution will always be more work for the party. If the GNB cannot move the boss without losing an oGCD due to the new rigidness of Burst Strike, it'll either be a damage loss for them or force their co-tank to move it for them. Neither scenario requires forethought from a gameplay perspective. Likewise, if you can only time Rampart to line up with an upcoming tank buster but won't have the weave space to add a second CD, you'll just take more damage than any other tank in the same position.

You say you don't want GNB to be dumbed down. Is it now? Why would allowing it to keep it's current weave slot suddenly make it dumbed down? Because all Hypervelocity does is remove what already exists.

[WhyAmIHere]

It's an optimized GNB. How well did you perform in TEA? Did you clip your GCD, delay Burst Strike/Faded Circle out of raid buffs or lose a GCD moving the boss? All of these are issues GNB already has but can be mitigated to an extent with current Burst Strike. That will no longer be the case in Endwalker since you'll have a oGCD tied to it.



Nothing about this is added complexity because the solution will always be more work for the party. If the GNB cannot move the boss without losing an oGCD due to the new rigidness of Burst Strike, it'll either be a damage loss for them or force their co-tank to move it for them. Neither scenario requires forethought from a gameplay perspective. Likewise, if you can only time Rampart to line up with an upcoming tank buster but won't have the weave space to add a second CD, you'll just take more damage than any other tank in the same position.

You say you don't want GNB to be dumbed down. Is it now? Why would allowing it to keep it's current weave slot suddenly make it dumbed down? Because all Hypervelocity does is remove what already exists.

You can look up yourself, but both my clears in TEA were grey. The one death was not being healed after double rocket punch, but there's drama to tell between me and that healer. the second kill was lag during ordained stillness/motion, tho at that time i was having to tether off of my phone to even raid.
But, every cooldown barring HoS (except in some cases) was planned out for the entire fight. I've still got a copy of the excel doc if you want that too.
Again: I value the clear over the parse. I don't engage in speedun shite because it's not my forte.
If it's "Moving the boss is going to be harder" then just figure out ways to move the boss where either you're not going to be using burst strike, or start to move ahead of time. If WHM can figure out movement during a boss fight, GNB can.
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"If you only hit the tail end of rampart with a tank buster, you take more damage!"
...what? Did you read what you wrote? Besides which, your "2nd weave" is still free, even now. If you gotta push a gap closer around to make room for Heart of Stone or Heart of Light, then how will having hypervelocity impact that?
Again though, you're not making sense in what you're asking.

"You say you don't want GNB to be dumbed down. Is it now? Why would allowing it to keep it's current weave slot suddenly make it dumbed down? Because all Hypervelocity does is remove what already exists. "

As GNB is now is what we should be using as the control in comparison. GNB isn't dumbed down now because there's nothing else to compare it to. I'm not complaining about how it is now, I'm saying "complaining about Hypervelocity cannot lead to a gutting of GNB how DRK got gutted in 5.0 due to a perceived "wah it's too hard"." As has been said in the past, "if you don't like it no one's forcing you to play it." If GNB getting Hypervelocity in 6.0 is suddenly going to make GNB too troublesome to play, and people would want to see it removed, I'd say be careful what you wish for. If enough people start on this train I wholly expect 7.0 GNB to be neutered, and having a tank that is not just "press 1 2 3, spam 4 every so often" is a good thing. I joked about "Bloodthrist now allows your next 5 Burst Strikes to not consume cartridges," but given how SE tends to react to "wah gameplay too hard, SE fix," I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they kneejerk implement.

[Ixon]

And I'd still counter with "git gud."
Having complexity on a tank and making it require preplanning and forethought, as well as an ability to adapt on the fly, for how to weave in your mitigation in the midst of doing your rotation, is optimization. It's just not "I'm tryna get top parse" optimization, but tbf that's not something I personally ever felt like chasing. If you wanna push for top numbers then more power to you.

Some of us don't want to settle for mediocrity.

I'd rather not have yet another tank have it's gameplay be dumbed down because a few people wanna complain "wah GNB too hard, SE fix."
What all this comes off to me as is "GNB is gonna become even more technical and difficult to master and perform well with in the midst of an encounter," and frankly I'm salivating over that.

No one is asking to "dumb down" current GNB? We are suggesting that additional bloat may take enjoyment out of the job and add an unnecessary level of clunkyness.

[WhyAmIHere]

Some of us don't want to settle for mediocrity.



No one is asking to "dumb down" current GNB? We are suggesting that additional bloat may take enjoyment out of the job and add an unnecessary level of clunkyness.

Good for you/them. Didn't know clearing content was just "mediocre" nowadays, but semantics. If you wanna push for those top color numbers, either play a job that's more conducive to reaching those peaks, or figure out how to utilize the kit to it's fullest. Sounds like "git gud GNB" to me.
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"I don't like how often I have to press Dark Arts. It's too spammy and just button bloat since all it is is a "press for 140 potency" unless used on Carve and Split." is all I'm hearing with complaints about Hypervelocity. The whole Continuation thing was even added to tie in to the Trigger thing from FF8, a key selling point for the job and part of it's core identity. Complaining about that to me is akin to complaining that medicine is bitter, or that a diesel engine's too loud.
The only clunkiness from 6.0 that's foreseeable is not being able to fit in Hypervelocity (which.. how tf should that be abbreviated? HV?) if you use burst strike at the end of No Mercy.

[Ixon]

You can look up yourself, but both my clears in TEA were grey.

One death is not a grey, that is a severe lack of optimization.

I value the clear over the parse. I don't engage in speedun shite because it's not my forte.

Nice, this conversation isn't for you then. This is about the issues additional forced oGCD's will bring to those that wish to fully optimize their kit with their party while maintaining the highest DPS possible.

The rest is just.. wrong? Asking the dev team to not add an additional layer of unnecessary complexity for the sake of just adding a new button isn't that hard to grasp. The job is fine now, no need for any additional layers, just build on what's currently there. I feel they did that pretty well with both PLD and WAR, all we are asking for is more of the same. I don't understand this absolute fear people have with the dev team. "Don't ask for too much, they might do something spooky with your job." They are the client, we are the customer. We provide feedback on changes we would like to see, and they implement them. If it's in the wrong direction you continue to work with them until both parties are satisfied, that's just how things work. I'm not going to blindly accept something I believe to be a wrong design choice just because I am scared that they might do something else.

No one is saying it will be too hard, I don't think a single person against Hypervelocity in this thread has said the change will make the job too hard. The concern is the change making the job unfun to play for those who currently enjoy it.

[Ixon]

Good for you/them. Didn't know clearing content was just "mediocre" nowadays, but semantics. If you wanna push for those top color numbers, either play a job that's more conducive to reaching those peaks, or figure out how to utilize the kit to it's fullest. Sounds like "git gud GNB" to me.

That's.. not how it works? Each job in it's own has the ability to reach "top colors", it's not limited to a handful of jobs.

"I don't like how often I have to press Dark Arts. It's too spammy and just button bloat since all it is is a "press for 140 potency" unless used on Carve and Split." is all I'm hearing with complaints about Hypervelocity. The whole Continuation thing was even added to tie in to the Trigger thing from FF8, a key selling point for the job and part of it's core identity. Complaining about that to me is akin to complaining that medicine is bitter, or that a diesel engine's too loud.
The only clunkiness from 6.0 that's foreseeable is not being able to fit in Hypervelocity (which.. how tf should that be abbreviated? HV?) if you use burst strike at the end of No Mercy."

See, this is where I don't think you actually understand the issue. First, HW DRK was probably my favorite iteration of a job that SE will probably never be able to replicate. Second, Dark Arts then/Edge now is not equal to Continuation minus that they are heavily used oGCDs. The difference is you could CHOOSE where to spend Dark Arts, you can CHOOSE where to spend and Edge, you cannot CHOOSE where to spend a Continuation, it is after the associated GCD or you lose it. It's the lack of flexibility that forced oGCDs cause. Currently it's not an issue most of the time because it happens 3 times every 30sec. In Endwalker though, that could easily double and you begin to cross the line of "just enough" to "absurd" when it comes to CPM bloat and "complexity". It's not even complexity, it's just a pain to deal with sometimes. No one, not anyone, asked for more forced oGCDs for GNB.

[Benn]

Except it becomes less skill oriented and more bothersome when your co-tank needs to voke because you simply don't have the space or properly move the boss without losing a Continuation combo. This is already a thing in speedkills, and was an issue in some fights this expansion. E5 comes to mind.

A simple soluation Xeno has brought up on his stream is making Continuation have a higher range. While it doesn't help the weaving problem, you'd at least be able to position the boss without risking your combo.

First of all I want to say: I understand frustration of people who go for Ultimates and speedkills. I really do so I am sorry that it will make your gameplay worse.

But 99% of player base does not do speedkills, ultiamtes, hell even savage is mostly ignored. For me, a casual tank main - I like more OGCDs becasue that is the fun of GNB for me. And I really like idea of Continuation for Burst Strike as it was always for me that window where I was like "Why so slow now??". For me GNB is insane speed, speed and speed where my fingers jump all over keyboard and I love it.

So for me, a casual - that's just more fun to weave more on GNB. Hell, till this point I was like "aahh, I wish I had one or two more OGCDs here and there".

So yeah, for me it's more fun, and I play to have fun

[Ixon]

First of all I want to say: I understand frustration of people who go for Ultimates and speedkills. I really do so I am sorry that it will make your gameplay worse.

But 99% of player base does not do speedkills, ultiamtes, hell even savage is mostly ignored. For me, a casual tank main - I like more OGCDs becasue that is the fun of GNB for me. And I really like idea of Continuation for Burst Strike as it was always for me that window where I was like "Why so slow now??". For me GNB is insane speed, speed and speed where my fingers jump all over keyboard and I love it.

So for me, a casual - that's just more fun to weave more on GNB. Hell, till this point I was like "aahh, I wish I had one or two more OGCDs here and there".

So yeah, for me it's more fun, and I play to have fun

Most of us, myself included, also play for fun. I play GNB solely for no other reason other than it is the most enjoyable job for me. This isn't a change for the highest of elitists, this is for everyone, casual to world first hardcore. Here is the thing though, when you design a job for the highest end content, usually nothing changes on the lower end, it still preforms just fine and no one bats an eye. However, when you design a job for the casual content primarily in mind, it has a chance to negatively impact the higher tiered players. Not just speed runners or top parsers, but even for people just doing raids. I play to the best of my abilities wherever I am at, dungeons, 24-mans, FATEs, etc, and in all those scenarios for people like me, this has the potential to disrupt the current flow of gameplay we currently enjoy.

The majority of players will lose nothing if they modify how Hypervelocity interacts in a way more suitable for end game content, and a change would only stand to be a gain for all players overall minus those who play GNB like they are hitting a striking dummy.