It's time to hire dedicated Tank an Healer devs!

[Nyarlha]

I keep seeing this argument that it is problem for few vocal minority or the devs deem it not a big issue buuuuuuuut;

I am just going to leave this here.

Those two roles will always be the roles in need, it doesn't mean anything. You have more people not playing tank/healers because of "anxiety" than not playing them because they are "boring".

Also, "in need" doesn't mean much. I still get almost instant queues as DPS (at worse 5 minutes) for expert roulette. It would NEVER have happened during StB, back then DPS queues were at least 15/20 minutes long. We have more tanks and healers than we had in past expansions.

[kaynide]

I still get almost instant queues as DPS (at worse 5 minutes) for expert roulette. It would NEVER have happened during StB, back then DPS queues were at least 15/20 minutes long. We have more tanks and healers than we had in post expansions.

This is the bottom line I think most players don’t realize. The devs want short queue times before anything else. If tank or healing jobs are complex to play, it might be fun, but if few people play them then that complexity is undesirable.

This is a big reason games like Guildwars have thrown roles out the window, allowing each job to spec somewhat, but ultimately each job is self reliant. While fun, it feels less like a party based MMO and more like playing 3D street fighter. It works in GW, but with the trinity being so core to FFXIV, the Devs gotta do what they gotta do to keep active numbers up in those two roles.

[Melorie]

This is the bottom line I think most players don’t realize. The devs want short queue times before anything else. If tank or healing jobs are complex to play, it might be fun, but if few people play them then that complexity is undesirable.

Yeah, but like, between being something complex no one wants to touch and literally using 1 button most of the time, because your encounter design allows it, since you have overpowered healing ogcd healing skills and the lack of need for all of them given that the damage comes in bursts that you can easily recover...... There's a huge gap. There's a concept that is called learning curve, and a class can be easier to start but rewarding to master, which isn't the case WITH HEALERS. You can also have options, like an easy WHM (that being said, again... easy =/= spam 1 button) and a more complex ast, or vice-versa. You don't really need to spread this "easy mode" across all the options or leave it at supposedly just one (sage, which doesn't really look like it is truly escaping from the one button spam hell, but we shall see).

Dancer is a very easy class, but still feels "dynamic" at least when you play it. People are simply asking to stop spamming one button forever the better you get at the class. And you don't even need to be good at it to achieve this stage, the content literally throws you at it because of the way it is designed, and unless you go for the hardcore content (and even there...), you don't really have any options to avoid the spam glare/malefic/broil hell.

[GeminiReed]

This is a big reason games like Guildwars have thrown roles out the window, allowing each job to spec somewhat, but ultimately each job is self reliant. While fun, it feels less like a party based MMO and more like playing 3D street fighter. It works in GW, but with the trinity being so core to FFXIV, the Devs gotta do what they gotta do to keep active numbers up in those two roles.

You mean ZergWars? By attempting abandon roles all the open world content devolved into N+1 fights. Their instanced content hadn't fared much better to the point where they needed to (sorta) reintroduce roles just so they could design interesting mechanics. Role-less designs are a monkey's paw (you think you want it but you don't)

[kaynide]

Yeah, but like, between being something complex no one wants to touch and literally using 1 button most of the time, because your encounter design allows it, since you have overpowered healing ogcd healing skills and the lack of need for all of them given that the damage comes in bursts that you can easily recover...... There's a huge gap. There's a concept that is called learning curve, and a class can be easier to start but rewarding to master, which isn't the case WITH HEALERS. You can also have options, like an easy WHM (that being said, again... easy =/= spam 1 button) and a more complex ast, or vice-versa. You don't really need to spread this "easy mode" across all the options or leave it at supposedly just one (sage, which doesn't really look like it is truly escaping from the one button spam hell, but we shall see).

Dancer is a very easy class, but still feels "dynamic" at least when you play it. People are simply asking to stop spamming one button forever the better you get at the class. And you don't even need to be good at it to achieve this stage, the content literally throws you at it because of the way it is designed, and unless you go for the hardcore content (and even there...), you don't really have any options to avoid the spam glare/malefic/broil hell.

I mean, Whm has a lot going on- juggling regen/medica to make lilies so you can instant heal, and juggling them and your actual hard costs while also throwing in your dot.

It’s not rocket science hard or anything, but to ignore the mechanics of its healing kit to say it just has a 1 button rotation has always felt disingenuous.

You mean ZergWars? By attempting abandon roles all the open world content devolved into N+1 fights. Their instanced content hadn't fared much better to the point where they needed to (sorta) reintroduce roles just so they could design interesting mechanics. Role-less designs are a monkey's paw (you think you want it but you don't)

GW has basically abandoned instanced content outside of main story though? And even that is mostly faceroll. I’m not really sure what roles you are meaning in the specs, as nothing in that game would function as a healer or tank in the common understanding of the word. I mean I could get tankier gear/skills, but there is basically nothing that forces mobs on me while my teammates do their thing.

It works for what it’s trying to do and has been largely enjoyable to my solo playing self.

The point of my post was to demonstrate that some games make a lack of roles work, but FFXIV isn’t that game, and that is why healers lack a DPS rotation of any kind. Love it or hate it, this is what the devs have decided on, and I for one support it because players like my wife wouldn’t even try healing if they had to focus on anything else.

As she often says “I’ll try to throw a stone when I can, but I’m focused on dodging the floor and also watching your health bars”

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

I understand wanting tanking and healing to be more interesting...but why more complex?

I think that would be better suited for content, not Jobs.
Give tanks more responsibility, make healing more of an important or urgent matter. Again i can get behind making the jobs more interesting to play, but i think the bigger issue is the battle content

[Caurcas]

I understand wanting tanking and healing to be more interesting...but why more complex?

I think that would be better suited for content, not Jobs.
Give tanks more responsibility, make healing more of an important or urgent matter. Again i can get behind making the jobs more interesting to play, but i think the bigger issue is the battle content

I disagree. I adored HW era tanking, its was both complex and interesting. You had to properly prep tank swaps, juggle your stance and combos while watching your resources and dealing with encounter mechanics. The skill ceiling to it was the by far the most fun it ever was, and ever since each xpac has stripped back more and more layers and it has made the role supremely boring outside of dps optimization.

[Absurdity]

I understand wanting tanking and healing to be more interesting...but why more complex?

I think that would be better suited for content, not Jobs.
Give tanks more responsibility, make healing more of an important or urgent matter. Again i can get behind making the jobs more interesting to play, but i think the bigger issue is the battle content

Because adding complexity to content restricts it to that content only and it usually means "add more complexity to Savage and Ultimate".

Problem is that Savage and Ultimate content make up maybe 5% of the game. You will never have complex design in 95% of the game's content, for the same reason that the story mode now has easy and super easy options, which also means you will be bored out of your mind in 95% of the game.

So if I don't want to fall asleep while playing the game it means I have to spam the same 4 (sometimes 5) fights for up to 6 months, that's not a solution.

[Wobi]

I’ve been healing since 1.0 times, while I’d appreciate more variety in our DPS kit I’m not sure making encounters require more healing outside of higher end content is the answer. Some people only run with their raid crew and don’t meet the people who struggle to heal even basic dungeons. How do you make content for those players? If they amp things too high less people want to heal and queue times rise.

They already scale up the heal checks as we progress the content, and when they tried making harder dungeons people complained and stopped running expert roulette. It’s a fine balance to keep every tier of player happy.

Also things like stance dancing was a terrible idea, if you had higher ping more often than not it would delay and you’d swap right back to the wrong stance and end up healing for nothing or as a tank miss your mitigation to survive tankbusters. While this was appreciated by high-end raiders it was just a pain to the general population. They had to simplify things to get more people to play, as a result queue times are not as bad as they once were.

[TaleraRistain]

Also things like stance dancing was a terrible idea, if you had higher ping more often than not it would delay and you’d swap right back to the wrong stance and end up healing for nothing or as a tank miss your mitigation to survive tankbusters. While this was appreciated by high-end raiders it was just a pain to the general population. They had to simplify things to get more people to play, as a result queue times are not as bad as they once were.

CS was really finicky, too. Those old memes about healing in cleric stance weren't just because we were screwing up. You would think it was off but it wasn't. And while we do often have to make up for our parties doing stupid things, CS almost seemed to punish us more than help us, since it had that cooldown before you could swap it off and inevitably someone would take avoidable damage the second you put it on. I was really happy when they changed our damage to MND and got rid of the whole process.