It's time to hire dedicated Tank an Healer devs!

[kaynide]

Yeah, but like, between being something complex no one wants to touch and literally using 1 button most of the time, because your encounter design allows it, since you have overpowered healing ogcd healing skills and the lack of need for all of them given that the damage comes in bursts that you can easily recover...... There's a huge gap. There's a concept that is called learning curve, and a class can be easier to start but rewarding to master, which isn't the case WITH HEALERS. You can also have options, like an easy WHM (that being said, again... easy =/= spam 1 button) and a more complex ast, or vice-versa. You don't really need to spread this "easy mode" across all the options or leave it at supposedly just one (sage, which doesn't really look like it is truly escaping from the one button spam hell, but we shall see).

Dancer is a very easy class, but still feels "dynamic" at least when you play it. People are simply asking to stop spamming one button forever the better you get at the class. And you don't even need to be good at it to achieve this stage, the content literally throws you at it because of the way it is designed, and unless you go for the hardcore content (and even there...), you don't really have any options to avoid the spam glare/malefic/broil hell.

I mean, Whm has a lot going on- juggling regen/medica to make lilies so you can instant heal, and juggling them and your actual hard costs while also throwing in your dot.

It’s not rocket science hard or anything, but to ignore the mechanics of its healing kit to say it just has a 1 button rotation has always felt disingenuous.

You mean ZergWars? By attempting abandon roles all the open world content devolved into N+1 fights. Their instanced content hadn't fared much better to the point where they needed to (sorta) reintroduce roles just so they could design interesting mechanics. Role-less designs are a monkey's paw (you think you want it but you don't)

GW has basically abandoned instanced content outside of main story though? And even that is mostly faceroll. I’m not really sure what roles you are meaning in the specs, as nothing in that game would function as a healer or tank in the common understanding of the word. I mean I could get tankier gear/skills, but there is basically nothing that forces mobs on me while my teammates do their thing.

It works for what it’s trying to do and has been largely enjoyable to my solo playing self.

The point of my post was to demonstrate that some games make a lack of roles work, but FFXIV isn’t that game, and that is why healers lack a DPS rotation of any kind. Love it or hate it, this is what the devs have decided on, and I for one support it because players like my wife wouldn’t even try healing if they had to focus on anything else.

As she often says “I’ll try to throw a stone when I can, but I’m focused on dodging the floor and also watching your health bars”

[FrogDog]

I saw an interview Zepla did with Yoshi P and I was stunned by out of touch he seemed to be with the healer meta of his own game and it left me wondering where exactly are the devs pulling this feedback from? Also shocking were some delusional comments on the video from players acting like healers DPSing in high-end content is some new, revolutionary concept. What game are they playing?

https://youtu.be/8_mdi8RMbRk?t=1236

The interview in question with timestamp

I mean, Whm has a lot going on- juggling regen/medica to make lilies so you can instant heal, and juggling them and your actual hard costs while also throwing in your dot.

It’s not rocket science hard or anything, but to ignore the mechanics of its healing kit to say it just has a 1 button rotation has always felt disingenuous.

That's not how lilies work, they're a flat resource that you get one of every 30s. There really should be no "juggling" of regen and Medica II either. Regen goes on tank, and if you need to heal on the move or do an AoE heal there are ogcds that you would go through before Regen or Medica II ideally.

[Deveryn]

I saw an interview Zepla did with Yoshi P and I was stunned by out of touch he seemed to be with the healer meta of his own game and it left me wondering where exactly are the devs pulling this feedback from? Also shocking were some delusional comments on the video from players acting like healers DPSing in high-end content is some new, revolutionary concept. What game are they playing?

https://youtu.be/8_mdi8RMbRk?t=1236

The interview in question with timestamp.

What game are they playing? The same one we are, as he notes in the very same interview. For better healer commentary, you might try MTQ for more healer talk.

https://youtu.be/kAbCjPPS1RQ

As for the Zepla interview, what exactly is wrong with the answer?

They're pulling the feedback from whatever the best source is, where things are communicated better, which is something he comments on in Zepla's interview. Saying someone is out of touch and not really elaborating on what could be done is a great way to keep dragging this on and see no change.

[Caurcas]

Catering to the lowest common denominator is quite a bummer, especially with them squandering as interesting a gameplay system that 14 could have.

[FrogDog]

What game are they playing? The same one we are, as he notes in the very same interview. For better healer commentary, you might try MTQ for more healer talk.

https://youtu.be/kAbCjPPS1RQ

As for the Zepla interview, what exactly is wrong with the answer?

They're pulling the feedback from whatever the best source is, where things are communicated better, which is something he comments on in Zepla's interview. Saying someone is out of touch and not really elaborating on what could be done is a great way to keep dragging this on and see no change.

What's wrong with the answer is that the meta is for healers to DPS. Yoshi P has said in the past they don't design encounters around healers DPSing yet that seems to fly in the face of actual encounter design and enrage mechanics. So here he is saying they were pulling in feedback from high-end players who were tired of healing all the time and wanted more opportunity to do DPS.

Meanwhile you look elsewhere, beyond what Yoshi P says, and you see feedback of people asking for more complex DPS rotations or more healing required. So again, where are the devs pulling their feedback from because it seems to be for a very different game. The one I'm playing is designed around highly scripted damage and ogcd healing between single button DPS spam.

[KizuyaKatogami]

What game are they playing? The same one we are, as he notes in the very same interview. For better healer commentary, you might try MTQ for more healer talk.

https://youtu.be/kAbCjPPS1RQ

As for the Zepla interview, what exactly is wrong with the answer?

They're pulling the feedback from whatever the best source is, where things are communicated better, which is something he comments on in Zepla's interview. Saying someone is out of touch and not really elaborating on what could be done is a great way to keep dragging this on and see no change.

Here’s the problem. Yoshi P keeps contradicting himself and the dev decisions keep contradicting what he says. Yoshi P has been saying for the past 2 expansions that while they won’t give healers a more complex dps rotation, they’ll instead make healers have to heal more yet, this remains to be seen. And now? They’re giving almost every dps an aoe regen,shield,or heal. So they’re giving dps of all things all these skills, when there’s already a problem with raid design getting in the way of healers actually having to heal and not spamming glare 90% of the fight. They very clearly are not playing the same game as us and it shows, doesn’t help that all the main devs seem to only play dps. How ironic is it that, the job played by yoshi p got one of the biggest qol changes out of any expansion in the upcoming one?

[Gameovers]

Someone on the healer forums mentioned encounter design. And I agree. If they made THAT better and harder then that'll fix 80% of the issues right there.

[Stormfur]

So I have a somewhat related question, but is there an MMO out there that does tank and healer classes RIGHT? Because in the beginning of ARR, Yoshi and Co. played a lot of WOW to see what made it addictive and fun and what features they could bring over to XIV. I'm just wondering if there's a game out there that really feels rewarding to play tank and healer classes.

[GeminiReed]

GW has basically abandoned instanced content outside of main story though? And even that is mostly faceroll. I’m not really sure what roles you are meaning in the specs, as nothing in that game would function as a healer or tank in the common understanding of the word. I mean I could get tankier gear/skills, but there is basically nothing that forces mobs on me while my teammates do their thing.

Admittedly it's been a few years since I've played it regularly but Druids and Revenants had some pretty strong healing builds. OTOH GW2's enmity mechanics were some of the worst I've ever played against. Mostly you took one of the mesmer specs for the mitigation and then cheesed the HP stats to trigger hate. Of course some of the encounters deviated from that. I've seen furthest person and round-robin. That's from memory so I reserve the right to be wrong on the exact details.

They had no choice but to abandon what little challenging content they had when their raid/fractal designer quit after NCSoft smacked ANet hard for neglecting the game.

I mean sure their version of role-less works for the people that like that sort of thing but it's not even close to being universally appealing. If you want instanced group content you're not playing GW2 for that.

[FrogDog]

So I have a somewhat related question, but is there an MMO out there that does tank and healer classes RIGHT? Because in the beginning of ARR, Yoshi and Co. played a lot of WOW to see what made it addictive and fun and what features they could bring over to XIV. I'm just wondering if there's a game out there that really feels rewarding to play tank and healer classes.

There aren't many to choose from anymore unfortunately. I can say around the time ARR came out the MMO market was hit with a wave of games that sought to do away with the trinity. The genre went from that being the fad to fly-by-night Chinese/Korean MMOs, which we seem to be in the tail end of these days. Meanwhile the MMO market declined and XIV endured probably because it's good enough in several things.

I can't speak to WoW's healing or tanking these days. From what I heard, mythic content requires a lot from a tank. I will say that for me, Wrath of the Lich King was where it was at with healing. It was a full-time role, semi chaotic and random, and restoration shaman had a good toolkit by that point. Overall the best healer I've played and the most rewarding was Operative in SWTOR.