"Swift completion" is relative to the game, not the community

[Nishira]

Two opposing parties... So like... opposition....

Usually with opposition one party is implied which opposes the view of the other party, instead of both parties considering themselves as being the opposition. At least, that’s how it always has struck me, English not being my mothertongue tho.

[Nishira]

I would just like to chime in real quick. If the point Nishira is trying to make is the word selection when trying to help someone then I'd agree. I notice that people tend to use more direct language on forums as opposed to in game.

That’s definitely a part of it yeah

[Nishira]

Anyway, I’ll sort of gracefully exit this thread and stop boring y’all

I still think trying to think in solutions might work more in your favour. Open up a thread addressed at SE how advice and feedback so easily being dismissed as elitist toxicity or harassment is stifling player growth and meaningul player interaction. Gather your troops, like the hell out of it, see if you can get it to gain traction and try open up a discussion with SE because I understand how their behaviour in this may fuel this particular frustration instead of helping with it.

Request class stickies for good, up to date gameplay guides on the role forums. Explain how that would help new/inexperienced players and how being able to refer them there would be a good thing.

Just two examples, maybe not the best ones, you can probably think up better but this is pretty much what I mean. If something frustrates you and you have sound reasoning for it, try changing it. It may do nothing, maybe it’s already been tried to no avail in which case the frustration would only make more sense, but even then a proper new discussion should not be off the table.

Anyway, I’m off to enjoy the autumn sun!

[Rinhi]

I would just like to chime in real quick. If the point Nishira is trying to make is the word selection when trying to help someone then I'd agree. I notice that people tend to use more direct language on forums as opposed to in game.

because the thin-skinned, overly nice community will report you if you call out someone that's basically griefing everyone
why risk your account?

Anyway, I’ll sort of gracefully exit this thread and stop boring y’all

I still think trying to think in solutions might work more in your favour. Open up a thread addressed at SE how advice and feedback so easily being dismissed as elitist toxicity or harassment is stifling player growth and meaningul player interaction. Gather your troops, like the hell out of it, see if you can get it to gain traction and try open up a discussion with SE because I understand how their behaviour in this may fuel this particular frustration instead of helping with it.

Request class stickies for good, up to date gameplay guides on the role forums. Explain how that would help new/inexperienced players and how being able to refer them there would be a good thing.

Just two examples, maybe not the best ones, you can probably think up better but this is pretty much what I mean. If something frustrates you and you have sound reasoning for it, try changing it. It may do nothing, maybe it’s already been tried to no avail in which case the frustration would only make more sense, but even then a proper new discussion should not be off the table.

Anyway, I’m off to enjoy the autumn sun!

there's a huge and I mean huge chance that a topic like that will get destroyed by the people who "we" are criticizing and more importantly by the ones enabling and feverishly defending them, tbh

[MaxCarnage]

Usually with opposition one party is implied which opposes the view of the other party, instead of both parties considering themselves as being the opposition. At least, that’s how it always has struck me, English not being my mothertongue tho.

Opposition is, to be put simply, when two sides disagree. For example, your arguments and Kolaina's arguments oppose each other, as you disagree at the core of it. So it's opposition.

Either way, I understand the anxiety of being called out in a group setting. I have struggled with that for a while. And in turn, I always sugar-coated advice I gave as I didn't want others to be put on the spot, and I, in turn, did not want to get yelled at. But I was told that by sugar-coating advice, and tip-toeing around whether it'll hurt someone's feelings or not often causes the message to be skewed. Turns what I'm saying into something else completely.

But as someone with bad anxiety, not wanting to be put on the spot like that, whenever I did get advice, I would try my absolute hardest to implement it in my playstyle. My way of thinking was, "if someone gave me advice, and I don't like the attention, I'll take that advice and hopefully in the future, no one else will call me out like that." It was a motivating factor to strive for better.

I know what I'm saying is anecdotal. However, I find the reasoning, "people don't take advice because it gives them anxiety" silly. I don't like that situation. I don't like being told what I'm doing wrong. Especially in a group setting by a stranger. But that made me want to be better to avoid that ever happening again.

Advice doesn't always have to be demeaning. It can be encouraging. But it does have to be direct. It's important not to lose the message.

[Chekopacheko]

As a Main Tank myself I tend to ask the healer if they want me to pull big or no, and I'm totally fine with either. In the end if I pull big and the healer cant handle it we are just gonna waste more time than if I do small pulls, and the purpose is to have a good time.

[Aiscence]

I would just like to chime in real quick. If the point Nishira is trying to make is the word selection when trying to help someone then I'd agree. I notice that people tend to use more direct language on forums as opposed to in game.

I mean if you say anything in game, you can get banned/reported, even if said nicely because the person "didn't want any unsolicited advice". Like if I see a tank on lvl 80 spamming only 1 2 3 on a mob pack, a dps that you know isn't doing any dps because you see them -only use jolt-, etc. You should be able to say something, especially as a mentor without a fear of getting banned because you need to be an ableist and carry people that are ok with doing 400 dps at lvl 80 as a sam (yes, I've seen that from a friend that didn't believe her eyes after it happened).

Like being toxic and bashing them on it is bad but even if you are nice you'll get shit one so no one dare to say anything in game even nicely. Try to tell someone "Hey, you seem to struggle a bit, try to use your spells like that" and if you get one "positive" answer out of 10, you are considered lucky.

So yeah people on the forum are more snappy because seeing people being ok with single pulling as a tank when you can do that with a dps tanking instead while people defend them to the grave is .. eh?

[Nestama]

I mean if you say anything in game, you can get banned/reported, even if said nicely because the person "didn't want any unsolicited advice".

And yet I have not been banned for giving unsolicited advice...
While "expressions that compel a playing style" is mentioned in prohibited behaviour, it's specifically under "Offensive Expressions," which to me says if you're rude/mean with your advice (swears, slurs, insults) then you risk a ban. So if you want to tell a RDM that just spamming Jolt isn't how to play RDM, or a tank doing a single-target rotation in a pack of mobs (inevitably having them go after the healer, which could fall under nuisance behaviour or MPK) should AoE, you shouldn't/won't be banned if you're neutral/nice about it.

[MiaShino]

I read that you have left the thread but shall respond for posterity sake.

Thank you for the laugh. But you know, if telling people how they should play is working for you, great! From what I gather of these discussions it’s not tho. And personally I think trying to understand why something does not work is more useful because there may be potential solutions there instead of having to settle for frustration.

There are mixed experiences giving the advice, it is most random! Some say nothing and do not improve, others respond (mostly sprouts in low level dungeons) with positivity, some are hostile. I do not need to stop and postulate why the tank refuses to put stance on or the deeps is not aoeing during trash pulls. I will simply ask to do this and kick if they do not. The only solution is to do the thing, aoe during pulls or put the stance on, etc. I am not nor are my friends obligated to tolerate dying nine times in the dungeon or being there for 40 minutes when there is kick feature.

I think at its heart the main issue might just be phrasing. I’ll try to explain what I mean.

(iron will)(please use it) or Tank your stance! maybe mister tank level sync disabled your tank stance. I do not and my friends and family are not opening this with "Omg stoopid dragoon doesn't know what doomspike is". I believe this is what others assume we are doing, but you know what assuming does. What I do not have to do is spend inordinate lengths of time explaining why something is better during content. I can, we try, but this is not necessary and is not my job to do.

In essence one could argue, if anything, it shows a lot of people behave very similarly! They may just be on different sides of a discussion. Most of the time the answer will be somewhere in the middle. From personal experience I’d say accepting people may make different choices and/or may be different from you, trying to understand their reasoning and keeping it in mind with how you approach stuff, and trying to figure out ways to encourage people in positive ways to experiment and learn might make these discussions less polarised and who knows, maybe result in something that has a positive impact for each side.

There are plethora of the things that are not worth discussing during a duty. We will ask for bigger pulls. We will tell someone they should aoe. Beyond this? No. I will not "accept the difference in choice" of the level 80 black mage spamming blizzard 2 at range during trash pulls. I shall ask them to stop and kick them when they do not. Depending on situation I will guide them to Wesker or other content creators that make reasonable guides aimed towards newer players.

Everyone is entitled to make all the decision and choices for how to play that they wish. What they are not entitled to is wasting another's time or causing grief to my friends and family. If they are entitled to play style choice I am entitled to *a party member has been dismissed from the duty*.

[Ronduwil]

And it's never ok to waste 10+ more min because someone think that things must go his way no matter what.

I'm honestly befuddled by all the hostility towards someone who wants to leisurely enjoy their leisure time. I'm beginning to suspect the difference is generational. I remember being a kid and having to wait hours in line for a single ride at Disneyland. In contrast, when I took my kids, we picked up a fast pass that held our place until we were about 20 minutes out. It's disheartening to see the overwhelming majority of FFXIV forum goers upvoting tantrums over spending a few extra minutes in the dungeon. Thankfully, I don't see this as much in the game itself. If I did, I would be inclined to simply unsub and find something fun to do that doesn't entail someone shouting at me to hurry up.