"Swift completion" is relative to the game, not the community

[Nishira]

I am not licensed therapist buuuuuut if being informed to use doomspike and dragonfire drive after the tank pulls twenty mobs hurts on the emotional level, there are bigger issues at play then this Lala can solve.

Thank you for the laugh. But you know, if telling people how they should play is working for you, great! From what I gather of these discussions it’s not tho. And personally I think trying to understand why something does not work is more useful because there may be potential solutions there instead of having to settle for frustration.

I think at its heart the main issue might just be phrasing. I’ll try to explain what I mean.

‘You should just pull wall to wall.’
‘You should know how to play by level 50/60/70/80.’
‘You shouldn’t slow down others and be a burden to them.’

Vs

‘You should respect other people’s right to play as they wish.’
‘You should be considerate.’
‘You should not rescue pull a tank around.’

I’m just giving a few examples that pop up a lot so no personal attacks But what they demonstrate is the inability of ‘should’ messages to encourage and foster different behaviour usually. I think it’s safe to say it annoys people on both sides of an argument. ‘You don’t pay my sub’ is the in game equivalent of ‘You’re not my mom!’

In essence one could argue, if anything, it shows a lot of people behave very similarly! They may just be on different sides of a discussion. Most of the time the answer will be somewhere in the middle. From personal experience I’d say accepting people may make different choices and/or may be different from you, trying to understand their reasoning and keeping it in mind with how you approach stuff, and trying to figure out ways to encourage people in positive ways to experiment and learn might make these discussions less polarised and who knows, maybe result in something that has a positive impact for each side.

[Nishira]

And not to dismiss your post Rinhi, but I think a keyword there might be ‘friend’. I think most people have less of an issue taking advice and listening to a friend because they trust in the good intention. Criticism is easier to take from someone of whom you know they have your best interest at heart. In that sense you can see with people who are generally more trusting, that they will have far less issue taking up advice from a stranger (because they automatically assume it comes from good intention) vs people who are less trusting or more fearful of strangers. In that sense I can’t see it as sabotaging someone’s good intent but more as a reflection of someone’s inner ‘fear/trust’ level.

[Kolaina]

snip

Or try this theory. As long as people like you say things are ok, the message you are giving is acceptance. Not knowing your class is acceptable. Not knowing a rotation is acceptable. Spamming medica 2 is acceptable. Not using cool downs on tank busters is acceptable.
As example I’ve given before, I can’t tell a healer to use more than medica 2, a tank to mitigate attacks that do nearly 50% of their hp, a black mage to use fire spells because in group content, especially alliance, there’s always someone who says “they are doing fine”.
Maybe they aren’t doing fine. That’s why someone spoke up. Advice may not always sound pretty, but that doesn’t mean its unsubstantiated or wrong. People don’t like being told they are doing something wrong. Being called out in public can be embarrassing. But it may, in the long wrong, benefit the player. As far as public embarrassment, do you think if i said “nishira, what your doing is X, try Y because reasons”, that anyone would remember who you were in a few days? A week? Take the advice. Run with it. Try it out. Move on. Move forward.
The community on the other hand has this hero complex. They have to swoop in and block players from criticism. Villify anyone who may hurt a players feelings. Attack because they accuse the person being critical of attacking. (Makes sense….) Those players aren’t helping anyone but themselves. An ego stroke, with the final result being stunting a players growth.
I’d like to consider myself above average in player skill. On some classes at least. But I didn’t get there on my own. I took advice. I accepted i had room to improve. That other players maybe knew more than i did. A lot of cases, didn’t know i was doing something incorrectly until it was pointed out. THAT right there needs to happen. Awareness. Not shielding people to protect a hurt feeling that they can over come

[Nishira]

I may just have been really unclear in my previous posts Kolaina but I’ve tried to explain my stance on advice given, and why people may struggle with taking it up in good faith at times. These are not necessarily the same.

Maybe reread what I wrote not from the perspective of ‘Nishira is just trying to protect players who play badly’ but from the perspective of ‘Nishira is trying to figure out a way how these things can be addressed in a way that might be acceptable to all sides’. I’m not saying my way guantees success in ‘fixing’ it, or that I’m completely transparant while explaining my thought processes, but I hope you’ll believe me when I say that’s all I’m trying to do.

And an edit. It’s actually in response to MaxCarnage’s post where she addressed my attitude might easily be perceived as dismissive. It does not bother me, ergo it should not bother you. While not intended that way, I understood that conclusion and did some thinking on it.

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

Or try this theory. As long as people like you say things are ok, the message you are giving is acceptance. Not knowing your class is acceptable. Not knowing a rotation is acceptable. Spamming medica 2 is acceptable. Not using cool downs on tank busters is acceptable.
As example I’ve given before, I can’t tell a healer to use more than medica 2, a tank to mitigate attacks that do nearly 50% of their hp, a black mage to use fire spells because in group content, especially alliance, there’s always someone who says “they are doing fine”.
Maybe they aren’t doing fine. That’s why someone spoke up. Advice may not always sound pretty, but that doesn’t mean its unsubstantiated or wrong. People don’t like being told they are doing something wrong. Being called out in public can be embarrassing. But it may, in the long wrong, benefit the player. As far as public embarrassment, do you think if i said “nishira, what your doing is X, try Y because reasons”, that anyone would remember who you were in a few days? A week? Take the advice. Run with it. Try it out. Move on. Move forward.
The community on the other hand has this hero complex. They have to swoop in and block players from criticism. Villify anyone who may hurt a players feelings. Attack because they accuse the person being critical of attacking. (Makes sense….) Those players aren’t helping anyone but themselves. An ego stroke, with the final result being stunting a players growth.
I’d like to consider myself above average in player skill. On some classes at least. But I didn’t get there on my own. I took advice. I accepted i had room to improve. That other players maybe knew more than i did. A lot of cases, didn’t know i was doing something incorrectly until it was pointed out. THAT right there needs to happen. Awareness. Not shielding people to protect a hurt feeling that they can over come

I've nothing further to add to the conversation that hasn't already been said, so just quoting you because you sum it up nicely.

And also because I want to extend the offer of a competent tank/healer should you ever have need of one on Crystal.

[Nishira]

What is the use tho of being in agreement with likeminded people if it does not change a thing about what is causing you frustration?

It’s in essence declaring it a stalemate. Nothing will change. Every discussion will be the same. And maybe it’s simply destined to be that way, I don’t know. But to my mind it’s more fun to try to get out of the stalemate situation. For that something needs to change, the same input gives the same results.

[Kolaina]

What is the use tho of being in agreement with likeminded people if it does not change a thing about what is causing you frustration?

It’s in essence declaring it a stalemate. Nothing will change. Every discussion will be the same. And maybe it’s simply destined to be that way, I don’t know. But to my mind it’s more fun to try to get out of the stalemate situation. For that something needs to change, the same input gives the same results.

A stalemate is not caused by like minded people. It is caused by opposition. So long as people shelter bad players, the stalemate will continue.

[Nishira]

A stalemate is not caused by like minded people. It is caused by opposition. So long as people shelter bad players, the stalemate will continue.

It’s caused by likeminded people drawing a line in the sand vs another group of likeminded people doing the same thing, while both parties experience it as being in the absolute right. That’s usually what causes the stagnation. It’s why understanding the reasoning of the opposite side usually helps, even if one does not fully agree. It helps with meeting in the middle somewhere and actually creating movement and change.

I take your frustration seriously, even if I don’t share it. And I’m wondering what the middle is in this discussion, and how change might be brought about.

[MaxCarnage]

It’s caused by likeminded people drawing a line in the sand vs another group of likeminded people doing the same thing

Two opposing parties... So like... opposition....

[Xirean]

I would just like to chime in real quick. If the point Nishira is trying to make is the word selection when trying to help someone then I'd agree. I notice that people tend to use more direct language on forums as opposed to in game.