"Swift completion" is relative to the game, not the community

[Nishira]

I think for me it simply boils down to acceptance Rinhi. I understand if you’d see it as toxic positivity, but to me that implies there’s a meaningful choice I can make that will somehow improve a situation and I’m blissfully ignoring it.

But is there a solution? Will it help to tell people to git gud, to tell them they suck, that they should just stick with Trusts and stay the hell away from DF? That you hate to carry their sorry lazy arses and will kick them from the group at every turn? Will that improve their performance? I can tell you now it won’t. I’ve not seen that make any meaningful impact in WoW, and people get away with it there so it’s been tried.

People’s performance will vary. I simply accept that.

[Xirean]

I think for me it simply boils down to acceptance Rinhi. I understand if you’d see it as toxic positivity, but to me that implies there’s a meaningful choice I can make that will somehow improve a situation and I’m blissfully ignoring it.

But is there a solution? Will it help to tell people to git gud, to tell them they suck, that they should just stick with Trusts and stay the hell away from DF? That you hate to carry their sorry lazy arses and will kick them from the group at every turn? Will that improve their performance? I can tell you now it won’t. I’ve not seen that make any meaningful impact in WoW, and people get away with it there so it’s been tried.

People’s performance will vary. I simply accept that.

This right here is honestly a bit insulting. Trying to help someone improve or even solve an issue they are having is not the same as flaming them. I report people who do what you described. However I enjoy joining in when people are offering advice on ability use.

[Nishira]

This right here is honestly a bit insulting. Trying to help someone improve or even solve an issue they are having is not the same as flaming them. I report people who do what you described. However I enjoy joining in when people are offering advice on ability use.

I don’t mean to target anyone specifically with that. But some of this has been said on this forum. Some of it has been said regularly in WoW, which I found quite horrid. Friendly advice is obviously a different matter, but someone may refuse to take it on. Or someone feels criticised and doesn’t handle that well, which is quite common. What I mean by this is, you can try the nice way and it may well yield little to no results. You can try the hard way and it may well yield little to no results. In the end you have very little say in how someone else decides to play.

[MiaShino]

Friendly advice is obviously a different matter, but someone may refuse to take it on. Or someone feels criticised and doesn’t handle that well, which is quite common.

I am not licensed therapist buuuuuut if being informed to use doomspike and dragonfire drive after the tank pulls twenty mobs hurts on the emotional level, there are bigger issues at play then this Lala can solve.

In the end you have very little say in how someone else decides to play.

*A party member was dismissed from the duty.*

[Nishira]

I am not licensed therapist buuuuuut if being informed to use doomspike and dragonfire drive after the tank pulls twenty mobs hurts on the emotional level, there are bigger issues at play then this Lala can solve.

Thank you for the laugh. But you know, if telling people how they should play is working for you, great! From what I gather of these discussions it’s not tho. And personally I think trying to understand why something does not work is more useful because there may be potential solutions there instead of having to settle for frustration.

I think at its heart the main issue might just be phrasing. I’ll try to explain what I mean.

‘You should just pull wall to wall.’
‘You should know how to play by level 50/60/70/80.’
‘You shouldn’t slow down others and be a burden to them.’

Vs

‘You should respect other people’s right to play as they wish.’
‘You should be considerate.’
‘You should not rescue pull a tank around.’

I’m just giving a few examples that pop up a lot so no personal attacks But what they demonstrate is the inability of ‘should’ messages to encourage and foster different behaviour usually. I think it’s safe to say it annoys people on both sides of an argument. ‘You don’t pay my sub’ is the in game equivalent of ‘You’re not my mom!’

In essence one could argue, if anything, it shows a lot of people behave very similarly! They may just be on different sides of a discussion. Most of the time the answer will be somewhere in the middle. From personal experience I’d say accepting people may make different choices and/or may be different from you, trying to understand their reasoning and keeping it in mind with how you approach stuff, and trying to figure out ways to encourage people in positive ways to experiment and learn might make these discussions less polarised and who knows, maybe result in something that has a positive impact for each side.

[MaxCarnage]

I think for me it simply boils down to acceptance Rinhi. I understand if you’d see it as toxic positivity, but to me that implies there’s a meaningful choice I can make that will somehow improve a situation and I’m blissfully ignoring it.

But is there a solution? Will it help to tell people to git gud, to tell them they suck, that they should just stick with Trusts and stay the hell away from DF? That you hate to carry their sorry lazy arses and will kick them from the group at every turn? Will that improve their performance? I can tell you now it won’t. I’ve not seen that make any meaningful impact in WoW, and people get away with it there so it’s been tried.

People’s performance will vary. I simply accept that.

I don't think anyone is saying to attack someone. I think we can all agree that telling someone that they are abhorrent at the game and to avoid any content that involves other people is not an acceptable way to behave. From what I have seen, no one here is advocating for attacking and demeaning a player for not being perfect. Being hostile will get no one anywhere.

And there's also a difference between lack of skill and comfort, as Kolaina has mentioned, and going out of your way to be intentionally bad. If someone isn't doing optimally, whatever, it's not a big deal. No one who does pug content expects everyone to be at the top of the game. Skill varies and that's okay. It's the effort, or lack thereof. The refusal to learn, grow, and apply yourself.

But to be accepting, encouraging, and even defending people who simply do not want to try and are willfully being carried? That's not okay, either. It may not phase you. That's fine, it doesn't necessarily have to if it's just you they are playing with. But that shouldn't discredit the people who it does bother. And it shouldn't be defended. If it doesn't phase you, then don't stand up for the person when someone else speaks up. If they're getting nasty, sure, keep them in line, but advice is not inherently rude. Enablers don't help any situation. And if someone is trying to learn and grow, telling them that they're "doing fine" when they're struggling, instead of offering honest advice to help, stunts growth and is more harmful than anything else.

What I mean by this is, you can try the nice way and it may well yield little to no results. You can try the hard way and it may well yield little to no results. In the end you have very little say in how someone else decides to play.

And that, I find, an issue. I understand I can't choose how someone takes advice. But if they are willfully ignoring advice given, that's a refusal to grow and learn. Solicited or not, a lot of time, the advice players give is out of the goodness of their heart. They want to help, not attack. So I think players who get angry at advice are honestly just as bad as players who don't put in effort.

[Rinhi]

I think for me it simply boils down to acceptance Rinhi. I understand if you’d see it as toxic positivity, but to me that implies there’s a meaningful choice I can make that will somehow improve a situation and I’m blissfully ignoring it.

But is there a solution? Will it help to tell people to git gud, to tell them they suck, that they should just stick with Trusts and stay the hell away from DF? That you hate to carry their sorry lazy arses and will kick them from the group at every turn? Will that improve their performance? I can tell you now it won’t. I’ve not seen that make any meaningful impact in WoW, and people get away with it there so it’s been tried.

People’s performance will vary. I simply accept that.

no, being an arse towards those people will obviously not help, but that's not what 99,9% of the players that are arguing for 'this side' do at all, I assume
what will happen is that any kind of advice is shunned because of things like "you don't pay my sub", "but I do it like this and you'll have to get used to it", "I don't like how the skill looks", "I don't like the animation this skill has so I don't use it" and other excuses and yes, these are all very real things people have been told, even on this very forum which, of course, got defended by some people because that's how you show how nice you are in this community
people should stop feeling like advice is a personal insult and attack and accept that the people who give advice do it for good reasons in most cases, tbh

I thought I was amazing on monk till I was like, level 70 or something until a friend showed me just how bad I was and I felt embarrassed and wanted to get better to not be a burden

[Nishira]

And not to dismiss your post Rinhi, but I think a keyword there might be ‘friend’. I think most people have less of an issue taking advice and listening to a friend because they trust in the good intention. Criticism is easier to take from someone of whom you know they have your best interest at heart. In that sense you can see with people who are generally more trusting, that they will have far less issue taking up advice from a stranger (because they automatically assume it comes from good intention) vs people who are less trusting or more fearful of strangers. In that sense I can’t see it as sabotaging someone’s good intent but more as a reflection of someone’s inner ‘fear/trust’ level.

[Kolaina]

snip

Or try this theory. As long as people like you say things are ok, the message you are giving is acceptance. Not knowing your class is acceptable. Not knowing a rotation is acceptable. Spamming medica 2 is acceptable. Not using cool downs on tank busters is acceptable.
As example I’ve given before, I can’t tell a healer to use more than medica 2, a tank to mitigate attacks that do nearly 50% of their hp, a black mage to use fire spells because in group content, especially alliance, there’s always someone who says “they are doing fine”.
Maybe they aren’t doing fine. That’s why someone spoke up. Advice may not always sound pretty, but that doesn’t mean its unsubstantiated or wrong. People don’t like being told they are doing something wrong. Being called out in public can be embarrassing. But it may, in the long wrong, benefit the player. As far as public embarrassment, do you think if i said “nishira, what your doing is X, try Y because reasons”, that anyone would remember who you were in a few days? A week? Take the advice. Run with it. Try it out. Move on. Move forward.
The community on the other hand has this hero complex. They have to swoop in and block players from criticism. Villify anyone who may hurt a players feelings. Attack because they accuse the person being critical of attacking. (Makes sense….) Those players aren’t helping anyone but themselves. An ego stroke, with the final result being stunting a players growth.
I’d like to consider myself above average in player skill. On some classes at least. But I didn’t get there on my own. I took advice. I accepted i had room to improve. That other players maybe knew more than i did. A lot of cases, didn’t know i was doing something incorrectly until it was pointed out. THAT right there needs to happen. Awareness. Not shielding people to protect a hurt feeling that they can over come

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

Or try this theory. As long as people like you say things are ok, the message you are giving is acceptance. Not knowing your class is acceptable. Not knowing a rotation is acceptable. Spamming medica 2 is acceptable. Not using cool downs on tank busters is acceptable.
As example I’ve given before, I can’t tell a healer to use more than medica 2, a tank to mitigate attacks that do nearly 50% of their hp, a black mage to use fire spells because in group content, especially alliance, there’s always someone who says “they are doing fine”.
Maybe they aren’t doing fine. That’s why someone spoke up. Advice may not always sound pretty, but that doesn’t mean its unsubstantiated or wrong. People don’t like being told they are doing something wrong. Being called out in public can be embarrassing. But it may, in the long wrong, benefit the player. As far as public embarrassment, do you think if i said “nishira, what your doing is X, try Y because reasons”, that anyone would remember who you were in a few days? A week? Take the advice. Run with it. Try it out. Move on. Move forward.
The community on the other hand has this hero complex. They have to swoop in and block players from criticism. Villify anyone who may hurt a players feelings. Attack because they accuse the person being critical of attacking. (Makes sense….) Those players aren’t helping anyone but themselves. An ego stroke, with the final result being stunting a players growth.
I’d like to consider myself above average in player skill. On some classes at least. But I didn’t get there on my own. I took advice. I accepted i had room to improve. That other players maybe knew more than i did. A lot of cases, didn’t know i was doing something incorrectly until it was pointed out. THAT right there needs to happen. Awareness. Not shielding people to protect a hurt feeling that they can over come

I've nothing further to add to the conversation that hasn't already been said, so just quoting you because you sum it up nicely.

And also because I want to extend the offer of a competent tank/healer should you ever have need of one on Crystal.