"Swift completion" is relative to the game, not the community

[Avidria]

I've seen the massive first pull to the boss in Mt Gulg be done in a PUG situation where the tank was lv 79 while the rest of us were 80. We wiped three times but we still did it, because that absolute unit of a tank kept going and never gave up on that pull. We all believed in that pull, we all achieved that pull and let me tell you it felt absolutely amazing.

Try to have some faith in your parties instead of worrying so much about the dungeon halting, live a little!

Not to be cynical, but if I'm in a pug group I'm not there for a challenge or to have to dedicate a bunch of effort and faith into pressing through something there's absolutely no need to press through. I'd rather split the pull in half than waste a bunch of time dying and running back unnecessarily.

Like, dying isn't a big deal in this game, but that certainly doesn't make it fun. Maybe I'm just negatively conditioned from other games I've played or something lmao. I still cringe thinking about when you needed to run back for WoW dungeons, which sometimes involved running across literally the entire zone or trekking through an actual maze of a cave. Now dying and running back is just irritating to me in general lmao

If the group can handle wall to wall, great, go nuts. But if they clearly can't, I'm not interested in waiting for them to figure out how. The group as a whole sets the pace, imo, and if you want a consistent one then you've gotta go with friends. The only consistent thing about pug groups is that they are not at all consistent.

if the rest of the party wasn't okay with attempting another big pull, they probably would've said something

Or they're like me and just wanted to get through it and be done, and were one wipe away from straight up just leaving the group. Or they did say something, and got ignored, which I've also seen happen.

I've gotten to the point where I expect pug groups to be average to mediocre at best, and keep my expectations low, so I can put up with a lot of godawful play. Commenting, in my experience, isn't always worth it and doesn't always help, and I just generally don't care enough to speak up anymore unless things get absolutely ridiculous levels of bad. Doesn't mean the run was "good" though : p

[Omedon]

if I'm in a pug group I'm not there for a challenge or to have to dedicate a bunch of effort and faith into pressing through something there's absolutely no need to press through. I'd rather split the pull in half than waste a bunch of time dying and running back unnecessarily.

Like, dying isn't a big deal in this game, but that certainly doesn't make it fun.

DINGDINGDING We have a winner! I should have included this in the OP, but yes, so very much this!

I do not play with strangers to be challenged. I establish for myself a set of parameters that pretty much guarantees success and renders the experience "idiot proof" (not to call y'all idiots, it's an established turn of phrase) in case of new players or those less comfortable with the pressure role of healing. I err on the side of "take'er easy," because I know that will end in success, and because, to be quite frank, every healer-player I've ever known personally has greatly appreciated and trusted in my care for their stress levels.

And, once again... I am still getting "swift completion" credit and therefore objectively going "fast enough." So for those healers that do crack the whip... no, this works. And the whip-cracking healer might be overconfident and still wipe us.

[Rokke]

This was the first xpac I got every job to cap for the amaro and learned tanks are just dps tha can survive getting punched longer. What is it about tanking that scares everyone? Does running slightly ahead of the others really tie your stomach in knots?

[LittleImp]

This was the first xpac I got every job to cap for the amaro and learned tanks are just dps tha can survive getting punched longer. What is it about tanking that scares everyone? Does running slightly ahead of the others really tie your stomach in knots?

With the amount of "Bad is ackshully good and good is ackshully bad" going on in this thread, I'm starting to think it's just the same form of ego-preserving contrarianism that you frequently see in other areas of this games community. You never have to admit to incompetence if you simply create your own arbitrary standards for what 'good' is.

These kinds of arguments of "I'm actually saving time by not causing wipes" and "I'm making my healer happy" are hilarious to anyone who seriously tanks or heals in this game. Wipes in dungeons due to double pulling are insanely rare and usually the result of someone flat out disconnecting. Some tank jobs can even do double pulls without a healer. With W2W wipes are still so rare that the time saved far outweighs any time spent on the occasional wipe. Any decent healer will find single pulls frustrating, as they don't get to engage with 90% of their kit.

If someone is finding that they constantly wipe to double pulls or w2w pulls as a tank or healer, they should examine their own play instead of trying to offload blame onto third parties, or engage in fantasies about how playing badly actually makes them a good player.

[DeaconMoore]

DINGDINGDING We have a winner! I should have included this in the OP, but yes, so very much this!

I do not play with strangers to be challenged. I establish for myself a set of parameters that pretty much guarantees success and renders the experience "idiot proof" (not to call y'all idiots, it's an established turn of phrase) in case of new players or those less comfortable with the pressure role of healing. I err on the side of "take'er easy," because I know that will end in success, and because, to be quite frank, every healer-player I've ever known personally has greatly appreciated and trusted in my care for their stress levels.

And, once again... I am still getting "swift completion" credit and therefore objectively going "fast enough."

OR you could just ask a simple 2 word question "Pull big?" And see what others want to do. You are one of four, not THE one.

Not that you should really need to ask, as such an experienced and competent tank, simply pulling the first two packs and seeing how well the group performs should tell you all you need to know about the pace you can keep.

[Omedon]

OR you could just ask a simple 2 word question "Pull big?" And see what others want to do. You are one of four, not THE one.

Not that you should really need to ask, as such an experienced and competent tank, simply pulling the first two packs and seeing how well the group performs should tell you all you need to know about the pace you can keep.

My fault for editing this in while you were responding, so I’ll repeat it here:

So for those healers that do crack the whip... no, this works. And the whip-cracking healer might be overconfident and still wipe us.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

My fault for editing this in while you were responding, so I’ll repeat it here:

So for those healers that do crack the whip... no, this works. And the whip-cracking healer might be overconfident and still wipe us.

The "swift completion time" you keep basing yourself off of hasn't been updated since it was added in 2.0, when runs were expected to take 40 minutes or so because no one was geared and everyone was new.

Dungeons have a timer of 90 minutes, I've timed out in aurum vale before, in 2.0. Ive timed out in amdapor keep.


That was 8 years ago. Much has changed since then.

You are basing your performance off an 8 year old, under geared, lack of knowledge metric.

Of course you are beating that metric. If you weren't, something would be very, very wrong.

[TaleraRistain]

Or they're like me and just wanted to get through it and be done, and were one wipe away from straight up just leaving the group. Or they did say something, and got ignored, which I've also seen happen.

I've gotten to the point where I expect pug groups to be average to mediocre at best, and keep my expectations low, so I can put up with a lot of godawful play. Commenting, in my experience, isn't always worth it and doesn't always help, and I just generally don't care enough to speak up anymore unless things get absolutely ridiculous levels of bad. Doesn't mean the run was "good" though : p

Using my Mt Gulg example, most tanks if we wipe will see the party can't handle the big pull and they'll voluntarily dial it back. I'm as chill in DF as someone can be but I'll speak up if they don't and suggest we go smaller. In the situation where we wiped three times, I told them let's split this one up so we can get through it and we can try again on the next one. When the next big pull didn't go so well, we started taking it a bit smaller and things went a lot smoother. I think too many people take it personally if they can't manage a big pull and think it's some sort of personal failing, but it's not. That particular collection of people can't manage it for whatever reason and there's no shame in that.

I've had tanks say they were drunk or high and they weren't gonna try to big pull, and I was pretty thankful for that. Fun runs because they were a hoot even on small pulls.