"Swift completion" is relative to the game, not the community

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Thank you for your answer Kolaina, and I do get your point. I think you may have experienced more (rightful) annoyance than I, simply because if I can’t be arsed to deal with the unpredictability of strangers I’ll stay far away from group content, and only sign up for it when I feel I can handle anything thrown my way lightheartedly

I still find it tricky tho, because how does one come to the conclusion someone is just really not even trying? Not so great play doesn’t automically imply that. It can but there may be perfectly understandable reasons. And while I understand your point with Illmaeran, I also understand if someone doesn’t want to state at the start of each run: this is my issue. In a way a videogame is also an escape from rl issues, or it may feel like asking for a pity carry each time.

I’d cry a bit on the inside if another whm only used Medica II, I really would haha. All these beautiful, amazing abilities… And I’m not denying you, and others who look at this the same way, are fully justified in it at times. But sometimes these discussions feel like a lot of people who don’t play optimally would be looked at that way. And I think that would not be fair on both sides tbh, it would paint both sides in too dark a light and not do anyone justice.

Because there is a big difference between 25% total group damage and 10%.

As a dps, if you are doing less than a quarter of the dps in a 4 man group, you aren't trying. You aren't even attempting to push buttons in any kind of reasonable manner.

I have been playing for 8 years, and I've leveled every job to 80. I can tell when people aren't trying. Can I tell if someone is doing a proper opener and rotation on every job? Of course not. But I can tell when a nin doesn't have huton, or a blm4 doesn't use fire, or a smn doesn't use their summons, etc, etc

[Kolaina]

I still find it tricky tho, because how does one come to the conclusion someone is just really not even trying?

The best and most obvious answer is experience. Playing thousands of instances. Watching other players. Playing every class and getting at minimum a basic understanding of how they play. Duty completion timer. The party list has a gauge under each player with a number showing where they fall on enmity. There’s more, but thats a start.

Rinhi has a great point. Toxic positivity. We should be raising each other up. Encouraging each other. Not excusing bad behaviour, including effortless play. Not shouting down people who offer advice. I’m tired of being told “they’re doing fine” or “you’re being toxic” when i try to offer someone a genuinely helpful tip. Those players aren’t helping anyone. Those players are encouraging nothing positive. Don’t be that player.

I understand your desire to be nice and friendly. That can be rare and sometimes a breath of fresh air. But sometimes, it hurts the situation in the long term. It does nothing to truly better the situation. Got to think long term and not just the moment to moment

[Nishira]

I think for me it simply boils down to acceptance Rinhi. I understand if you’d see it as toxic positivity, but to me that implies there’s a meaningful choice I can make that will somehow improve a situation and I’m blissfully ignoring it.

But is there a solution? Will it help to tell people to git gud, to tell them they suck, that they should just stick with Trusts and stay the hell away from DF? That you hate to carry their sorry lazy arses and will kick them from the group at every turn? Will that improve their performance? I can tell you now it won’t. I’ve not seen that make any meaningful impact in WoW, and people get away with it there so it’s been tried.

People’s performance will vary. I simply accept that.

[Rinhi]

I still find it tricky tho, because how does one come to the conclusion someone is just really not even trying? Not so great play doesn’t automically imply that. It can but there may be perfectly understandable reasons. And while I understand your point with Illmaeran, I also understand if someone doesn’t want to state at the start of each run: this is my issue. In a way a videogame is also an escape from rl issues, or it may feel like asking for a pity carry each time.

there's various ways, the obvious one being obviously a parser but we can ignore that for a moment
for healers, it's easy to see: do they spam medica 2, cure 2 and regen and nothing else? most likely bad habits reinforced by other players
do they stand around and do nothing between healing the tank whenever said tank takes 5% damage, do no damage aside from maybe a DoT every 5 minutes? not trying
standing AFK during alliance raids aside from an AOE regen heal every so often? not trying
tanks would be the obvious single pulling no cooldown using ones, still undecided if tanks who single target mobs in groups of 3-6 enemies aren't trying or don't know any better
dps would be the obvious, bottom of the emnity meter, buffs and standout/visible abilities never used, melee not doing positionals at all, casters casting the wrong spells over and over and over even if you give them advice

I’d cry a bit on the inside if another whm only used Medica II, I really would haha. All these beautiful, amazing abilities… And I’m not denying you, and others who look at this the same way, are fully justified in it at times. But sometimes these discussions feel like a lot of people who don’t play optimally would be looked at that way. And I think that would not be fair on both sides tbh, it would paint both sides in too dark a light and not do anyone justice.

I disagree here and I'll even go as far and argue that the 'other side' is painting 'this side' as the 'if you don't play optimally and never ever frick up, you're bad' kind of players because many of them don't have proper counter arguments to 'this side' wanting players to put in a little bit of effort and get better
like, I've been painted as an elitist raider on this forum even though I've never touched savage in my life and have only done 3 extremes unsynced - and only did okay on one while I was getting carried hard in the other two - I'm casual as frick

[Xirean]

I think for me it simply boils down to acceptance Rinhi. I understand if you’d see it as toxic positivity, but to me that implies there’s a meaningful choice I can make that will somehow improve a situation and I’m blissfully ignoring it.

But is there a solution? Will it help to tell people to git gud, to tell them they suck, that they should just stick with Trusts and stay the hell away from DF? That you hate to carry their sorry lazy arses and will kick them from the group at every turn? Will that improve their performance? I can tell you now it won’t. I’ve not seen that make any meaningful impact in WoW, and people get away with it there so it’s been tried.

People’s performance will vary. I simply accept that.

This right here is honestly a bit insulting. Trying to help someone improve or even solve an issue they are having is not the same as flaming them. I report people who do what you described. However I enjoy joining in when people are offering advice on ability use.

[Nishira]

This right here is honestly a bit insulting. Trying to help someone improve or even solve an issue they are having is not the same as flaming them. I report people who do what you described. However I enjoy joining in when people are offering advice on ability use.

I don’t mean to target anyone specifically with that. But some of this has been said on this forum. Some of it has been said regularly in WoW, which I found quite horrid. Friendly advice is obviously a different matter, but someone may refuse to take it on. Or someone feels criticised and doesn’t handle that well, which is quite common. What I mean by this is, you can try the nice way and it may well yield little to no results. You can try the hard way and it may well yield little to no results. In the end you have very little say in how someone else decides to play.

[MaxCarnage]

I think for me it simply boils down to acceptance Rinhi. I understand if you’d see it as toxic positivity, but to me that implies there’s a meaningful choice I can make that will somehow improve a situation and I’m blissfully ignoring it.

But is there a solution? Will it help to tell people to git gud, to tell them they suck, that they should just stick with Trusts and stay the hell away from DF? That you hate to carry their sorry lazy arses and will kick them from the group at every turn? Will that improve their performance? I can tell you now it won’t. I’ve not seen that make any meaningful impact in WoW, and people get away with it there so it’s been tried.

People’s performance will vary. I simply accept that.

I don't think anyone is saying to attack someone. I think we can all agree that telling someone that they are abhorrent at the game and to avoid any content that involves other people is not an acceptable way to behave. From what I have seen, no one here is advocating for attacking and demeaning a player for not being perfect. Being hostile will get no one anywhere.

And there's also a difference between lack of skill and comfort, as Kolaina has mentioned, and going out of your way to be intentionally bad. If someone isn't doing optimally, whatever, it's not a big deal. No one who does pug content expects everyone to be at the top of the game. Skill varies and that's okay. It's the effort, or lack thereof. The refusal to learn, grow, and apply yourself.

But to be accepting, encouraging, and even defending people who simply do not want to try and are willfully being carried? That's not okay, either. It may not phase you. That's fine, it doesn't necessarily have to if it's just you they are playing with. But that shouldn't discredit the people who it does bother. And it shouldn't be defended. If it doesn't phase you, then don't stand up for the person when someone else speaks up. If they're getting nasty, sure, keep them in line, but advice is not inherently rude. Enablers don't help any situation. And if someone is trying to learn and grow, telling them that they're "doing fine" when they're struggling, instead of offering honest advice to help, stunts growth and is more harmful than anything else.

What I mean by this is, you can try the nice way and it may well yield little to no results. You can try the hard way and it may well yield little to no results. In the end you have very little say in how someone else decides to play.

And that, I find, an issue. I understand I can't choose how someone takes advice. But if they are willfully ignoring advice given, that's a refusal to grow and learn. Solicited or not, a lot of time, the advice players give is out of the goodness of their heart. They want to help, not attack. So I think players who get angry at advice are honestly just as bad as players who don't put in effort.

[Nishira]

I hope you’ll forgive me for not quoting the bits I want to reply to MaxCarnage, I’m on my phone and it sucks

I’m a dreadful noob here, I’m not much better than a Cure III spamming whm in a corner haha. But I’ve played other games a long time, and would try to help if I saw someone struggling with a class I knew well. In that sense, if people give friendly advice, I’d never shut that down. I’m too interested myself to hear it! I get the frustration there when someone immediately tries to protect someone from that. I also know from my own friendly attempts some are just not interested. Others get insecure easily. Some don’t like you meddling in how they play. I do respect that, and I either let it go, or when it’s more about insecurity adjust tone and interaction.

I think, while I understand the choice to not enable that I think, one of the issues is that you can’t send a private tell to someone in your party. Discussing it in party chat may feel like a spotlight on them to either the recipient or others. A one on one chat is just far less threatening than if a person feels ‘called out’ in a group, even if the intention is perfectly friendly.

[MiaShino]

Friendly advice is obviously a different matter, but someone may refuse to take it on. Or someone feels criticised and doesn’t handle that well, which is quite common.

I am not licensed therapist buuuuuut if being informed to use doomspike and dragonfire drive after the tank pulls twenty mobs hurts on the emotional level, there are bigger issues at play then this Lala can solve.

In the end you have very little say in how someone else decides to play.

*A party member was dismissed from the duty.*

[Rinhi]

I think for me it simply boils down to acceptance Rinhi. I understand if you’d see it as toxic positivity, but to me that implies there’s a meaningful choice I can make that will somehow improve a situation and I’m blissfully ignoring it.

But is there a solution? Will it help to tell people to git gud, to tell them they suck, that they should just stick with Trusts and stay the hell away from DF? That you hate to carry their sorry lazy arses and will kick them from the group at every turn? Will that improve their performance? I can tell you now it won’t. I’ve not seen that make any meaningful impact in WoW, and people get away with it there so it’s been tried.

People’s performance will vary. I simply accept that.

no, being an arse towards those people will obviously not help, but that's not what 99,9% of the players that are arguing for 'this side' do at all, I assume
what will happen is that any kind of advice is shunned because of things like "you don't pay my sub", "but I do it like this and you'll have to get used to it", "I don't like how the skill looks", "I don't like the animation this skill has so I don't use it" and other excuses and yes, these are all very real things people have been told, even on this very forum which, of course, got defended by some people because that's how you show how nice you are in this community
people should stop feeling like advice is a personal insult and attack and accept that the people who give advice do it for good reasons in most cases, tbh

I thought I was amazing on monk till I was like, level 70 or something until a friend showed me just how bad I was and I felt embarrassed and wanted to get better to not be a burden