"Swift completion" is relative to the game, not the community

[Rinhi]

I still find it tricky tho, because how does one come to the conclusion someone is just really not even trying? Not so great play doesn’t automically imply that. It can but there may be perfectly understandable reasons. And while I understand your point with Illmaeran, I also understand if someone doesn’t want to state at the start of each run: this is my issue. In a way a videogame is also an escape from rl issues, or it may feel like asking for a pity carry each time.

there's various ways, the obvious one being obviously a parser but we can ignore that for a moment
for healers, it's easy to see: do they spam medica 2, cure 2 and regen and nothing else? most likely bad habits reinforced by other players
do they stand around and do nothing between healing the tank whenever said tank takes 5% damage, do no damage aside from maybe a DoT every 5 minutes? not trying
standing AFK during alliance raids aside from an AOE regen heal every so often? not trying
tanks would be the obvious single pulling no cooldown using ones, still undecided if tanks who single target mobs in groups of 3-6 enemies aren't trying or don't know any better
dps would be the obvious, bottom of the emnity meter, buffs and standout/visible abilities never used, melee not doing positionals at all, casters casting the wrong spells over and over and over even if you give them advice

I’d cry a bit on the inside if another whm only used Medica II, I really would haha. All these beautiful, amazing abilities… And I’m not denying you, and others who look at this the same way, are fully justified in it at times. But sometimes these discussions feel like a lot of people who don’t play optimally would be looked at that way. And I think that would not be fair on both sides tbh, it would paint both sides in too dark a light and not do anyone justice.

I disagree here and I'll even go as far and argue that the 'other side' is painting 'this side' as the 'if you don't play optimally and never ever frick up, you're bad' kind of players because many of them don't have proper counter arguments to 'this side' wanting players to put in a little bit of effort and get better
like, I've been painted as an elitist raider on this forum even though I've never touched savage in my life and have only done 3 extremes unsynced - and only did okay on one while I was getting carried hard in the other two - I'm casual as frick

[Kolaina]

snip

I’ll be honest. At first i scoffed at your question. But following your post history, I’ll take you seriously.
There may be a point where every player is mediocre. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. There comes a point where many people are learning, whether it be a new duty, new mechanics or a new class. There may even be a certain level of comfort, or rather, lack there of. Especially when in learning phases. My personal problem, is those who do not try to get better. The far below average, going to barely attempt, because….. someone else will get me through it.
The people who put in little to no effort are leeches. The ones who can try but don’t want to. This game, aside from raiding, (24 man content is not raiding), is design in such a way that the content can be cleared with 50% of the party being dead weight. While its possible, its not fair to the people who are putting in the effort dragging those people across the finish line. In fact, out right disrespectful.
I’ll give an example. A tank, I forget which class exactly, in paradigm had decided its “more fun”, literally his words, to stand in aoes. To not use cool downs. To not even make an attempt. When i asked them why they would go out of their way to make it harder on their healers, i got cussed out because I don’t pay their sub. That i was an elitist. Simply for asking why no effort. 1 experience of many
There comes a point where a person should be able to carry their weight. To contribute the same as they expect from the other party members. Not be dragged to their success off someone else’s effort. Off everybody’s effort but their own. And lately, I’ve seen a lot of that. 80 melees doing no more than their 1,2,3 single target rotation. Paired with whm co healers who only medica 2. Its ok for them to play that way means its ok for them to use others.
The bar i set in expectation for others isn’t very high. I don’t parse (console) so I can’t get too into peoples numbers. But when a person is without question, not trying, there is an issue.

[Payadopa]

What else is silly is not striving to become better. Being content with mediocrity.
Generally people won’t touch a comment with real life situations as you have included. But we are talking about a video game. Not the icu. In a video game you are given challenges to overcome. Overcoming challenges requires some form of progression, including personal skill level. Some people choose to get better. Strive to get better. Others are content as being passable, even if barely. Then there’s the enablers. The people who say “they’re doing fine” to healers that spam only medica 2 or yo tanks who pull a pack at a time. The 80 BLM doin a 50 rotation.
Self righteousness. Lol. Coming from the side that stands against those who ask for people to look higher. To reach for just a little more

Dude, it's DF. It's boring and not worth the effort to get worked up about it. For better or worse people outside the forums don't care. Make a PF and chill.

[Kolaina]

Dude, it's DF. It's boring and not worth the effort to get worked up about it. For better or worse people outside the forums don't care. Make a PF and chill.

Chill. People literally in here starting threads over duty finder experiences. Over differences of play. But chill. I see you replying as well. Taking a side. Speaking against those who disagree with you. Pot, meet kettle. The whole “make a party finder” argument as well goes both ways. I queue up for df and i take what i get. Doesn’t prevent me from having expectations that people put in some effort. Not like there’s people saying you need to be raid raid tier in expert roulette. But at least try a cohesive rotation with effort beyond potato.
Also, I’m not worked up. I find the forums more entertains than the game itself. You want to see worked up, pull during cutscene. People will get worked up. What goes on in these threads is a minor reaction when compared to the actual event at times.
One side says “try a bit”, or “get better”. The other side, the one you haven’t told to chill says “I’ll let people die”, along with “don’t like it, don’t play”.
K bud

[Nishira]

I think for me it simply boils down to acceptance Rinhi. I understand if you’d see it as toxic positivity, but to me that implies there’s a meaningful choice I can make that will somehow improve a situation and I’m blissfully ignoring it.

But is there a solution? Will it help to tell people to git gud, to tell them they suck, that they should just stick with Trusts and stay the hell away from DF? That you hate to carry their sorry lazy arses and will kick them from the group at every turn? Will that improve their performance? I can tell you now it won’t. I’ve not seen that make any meaningful impact in WoW, and people get away with it there so it’s been tried.

People’s performance will vary. I simply accept that.

[Xirean]

I think for me it simply boils down to acceptance Rinhi. I understand if you’d see it as toxic positivity, but to me that implies there’s a meaningful choice I can make that will somehow improve a situation and I’m blissfully ignoring it.

But is there a solution? Will it help to tell people to git gud, to tell them they suck, that they should just stick with Trusts and stay the hell away from DF? That you hate to carry their sorry lazy arses and will kick them from the group at every turn? Will that improve their performance? I can tell you now it won’t. I’ve not seen that make any meaningful impact in WoW, and people get away with it there so it’s been tried.

People’s performance will vary. I simply accept that.

This right here is honestly a bit insulting. Trying to help someone improve or even solve an issue they are having is not the same as flaming them. I report people who do what you described. However I enjoy joining in when people are offering advice on ability use.

[Nishira]

This right here is honestly a bit insulting. Trying to help someone improve or even solve an issue they are having is not the same as flaming them. I report people who do what you described. However I enjoy joining in when people are offering advice on ability use.

I don’t mean to target anyone specifically with that. But some of this has been said on this forum. Some of it has been said regularly in WoW, which I found quite horrid. Friendly advice is obviously a different matter, but someone may refuse to take it on. Or someone feels criticised and doesn’t handle that well, which is quite common. What I mean by this is, you can try the nice way and it may well yield little to no results. You can try the hard way and it may well yield little to no results. In the end you have very little say in how someone else decides to play.

[MiaShino]

Friendly advice is obviously a different matter, but someone may refuse to take it on. Or someone feels criticised and doesn’t handle that well, which is quite common.

I am not licensed therapist buuuuuut if being informed to use doomspike and dragonfire drive after the tank pulls twenty mobs hurts on the emotional level, there are bigger issues at play then this Lala can solve.

In the end you have very little say in how someone else decides to play.

*A party member was dismissed from the duty.*

[Nishira]

I am not licensed therapist buuuuuut if being informed to use doomspike and dragonfire drive after the tank pulls twenty mobs hurts on the emotional level, there are bigger issues at play then this Lala can solve.

Thank you for the laugh. But you know, if telling people how they should play is working for you, great! From what I gather of these discussions it’s not tho. And personally I think trying to understand why something does not work is more useful because there may be potential solutions there instead of having to settle for frustration.

I think at its heart the main issue might just be phrasing. I’ll try to explain what I mean.

‘You should just pull wall to wall.’
‘You should know how to play by level 50/60/70/80.’
‘You shouldn’t slow down others and be a burden to them.’

Vs

‘You should respect other people’s right to play as they wish.’
‘You should be considerate.’
‘You should not rescue pull a tank around.’

I’m just giving a few examples that pop up a lot so no personal attacks But what they demonstrate is the inability of ‘should’ messages to encourage and foster different behaviour usually. I think it’s safe to say it annoys people on both sides of an argument. ‘You don’t pay my sub’ is the in game equivalent of ‘You’re not my mom!’

In essence one could argue, if anything, it shows a lot of people behave very similarly! They may just be on different sides of a discussion. Most of the time the answer will be somewhere in the middle. From personal experience I’d say accepting people may make different choices and/or may be different from you, trying to understand their reasoning and keeping it in mind with how you approach stuff, and trying to figure out ways to encourage people in positive ways to experiment and learn might make these discussions less polarised and who knows, maybe result in something that has a positive impact for each side.

[MaxCarnage]

I think for me it simply boils down to acceptance Rinhi. I understand if you’d see it as toxic positivity, but to me that implies there’s a meaningful choice I can make that will somehow improve a situation and I’m blissfully ignoring it.

But is there a solution? Will it help to tell people to git gud, to tell them they suck, that they should just stick with Trusts and stay the hell away from DF? That you hate to carry their sorry lazy arses and will kick them from the group at every turn? Will that improve their performance? I can tell you now it won’t. I’ve not seen that make any meaningful impact in WoW, and people get away with it there so it’s been tried.

People’s performance will vary. I simply accept that.

I don't think anyone is saying to attack someone. I think we can all agree that telling someone that they are abhorrent at the game and to avoid any content that involves other people is not an acceptable way to behave. From what I have seen, no one here is advocating for attacking and demeaning a player for not being perfect. Being hostile will get no one anywhere.

And there's also a difference between lack of skill and comfort, as Kolaina has mentioned, and going out of your way to be intentionally bad. If someone isn't doing optimally, whatever, it's not a big deal. No one who does pug content expects everyone to be at the top of the game. Skill varies and that's okay. It's the effort, or lack thereof. The refusal to learn, grow, and apply yourself.

But to be accepting, encouraging, and even defending people who simply do not want to try and are willfully being carried? That's not okay, either. It may not phase you. That's fine, it doesn't necessarily have to if it's just you they are playing with. But that shouldn't discredit the people who it does bother. And it shouldn't be defended. If it doesn't phase you, then don't stand up for the person when someone else speaks up. If they're getting nasty, sure, keep them in line, but advice is not inherently rude. Enablers don't help any situation. And if someone is trying to learn and grow, telling them that they're "doing fine" when they're struggling, instead of offering honest advice to help, stunts growth and is more harmful than anything else.

What I mean by this is, you can try the nice way and it may well yield little to no results. You can try the hard way and it may well yield little to no results. In the end you have very little say in how someone else decides to play.

And that, I find, an issue. I understand I can't choose how someone takes advice. But if they are willfully ignoring advice given, that's a refusal to grow and learn. Solicited or not, a lot of time, the advice players give is out of the goodness of their heart. They want to help, not attack. So I think players who get angry at advice are honestly just as bad as players who don't put in effort.